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Old 10-23-2008, 12:21 AM   #1
jesse8888
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Can I FSDR OOP?

Cause I want to....

Live 20/40 game that is pretty much wild and reckless. Seat 5 is Max, a regular who, as far as I can tell, is on a life time heater. His raising range, from any position, includes A2o. Seat 7 is a Prop, but not a usual prop. This prop is capable of general laggery, and particularly so today since he understands that Max is a lagro-donkey and I am aware of said fact and therefore 3-betting wider than Hammerin' Hanks wife (zing...gotcha). Said prop has made plays like raising with A8o on a flop of 773 in a 4 handed limped pot preflop. Seat 9 is a lag-fish, who plays too many hands and bluffs too much.

I open 7 7 UTG because I'm stupid and can't accept that this is going to turn into a 5 handed pot. Prop cold-calls next in, seat 9 fish calls, someone else calls, and max from the big blind of course calls.

10 small bets, five hands

8 4 3

Max checks and I bet. Prop raises. Seat 9 fish calls two cold (this can be any pair, any two overs, and any gutshot+). LP cold caller folds, Max somehow folds, and I 3-bet. Prop caps. Seat 9 fish takes two more to the face, and I call.

10ish big bets, 3 hands

8 4 3 9

I check, prop checks, and Seat 9 fish bets....and I?
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Old 10-23-2008, 01:19 AM   #2
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Re: Can I FSDR OOP?

FOLD

bet the turn

edit okay he bluffs a lot and it's live so i guess he's stupid enough to bluff in to two people one of which has a spade draw 100% of the time and the other guy has a pair or something 100% of the time too. Whatever.

Call I guess but there's like 44 rivers you hate. Pair the board 1 time!
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Old 10-23-2008, 01:48 AM   #3
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Re: Can I FSDR OOP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jesse8888 View Post

I open 7 7 UTG ........
10 small bets, five hands
not perfect, but not the worst outcome.
you can still play for set value.
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Old 10-23-2008, 02:03 AM   #4
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Re: Can I FSDR OOP?

you don't seem to be good at limit hold them.
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Old 10-23-2008, 02:17 AM   #5
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Re: Can I FSDR OOP?

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you don't seem to be good at limit hold them.
You're hardly in a position to be giving anyone else ****, ever.

Be nice to Jesse, das my *****
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Old 10-23-2008, 03:14 AM   #6
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Re: Can I FSDR OOP?

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Originally Posted by CardSharpCook View Post
you don't seem to be good at limit hold them.
Statistically there is still a chance you're correct.

Seriously, how would you play this hand? Also...I can't remember what specifically, but I had more evidence of the prop doing very laggy things. I mean, theres a lot of stuff in his cold-call range that I beat, right?
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Old 10-23-2008, 03:17 AM   #7
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Re: Can I FSDR OOP?

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Originally Posted by StrictlyStrategy View Post
FOLD

bet the turn

edit okay he bluffs a lot and it's live so i guess he's stupid enough to bluff in to two people one of which has a spade draw 100% of the time and the other guy has a pair or something 100% of the time too. Whatever.
1. Yes, that guy is bad enough to bet into the two of us with his club draw.
2. What range can you put the prop on here after:

cold-call preflop
raise/4-bet the flop
check the turn

To me that smells like....another club draw? Once he checks the turn he doesn't have a set or an over pair. It's hard to even believe he has an 8.
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Old 10-23-2008, 04:38 AM   #8
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Re: Can I FSDR OOP?

jesse, what's your thought process behind your flop play?
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Old 10-23-2008, 12:47 PM   #9
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Re: Can I FSDR OOP?

Props hand looks like a draw and Seat 9 has either a monster or a draw. If you c/r now I think it should be the last dollar you put into the pot.
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Old 10-23-2008, 12:48 PM   #10
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Re: Can I FSDR OOP?

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Originally Posted by CardSharpCook View Post
you don't seem to be good at limit hold them.
This hand may or may not be a mess, but don't worry, Jesse play goot
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Old 10-23-2008, 12:50 PM   #11
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Re: Can I FSDR OOP?

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Originally Posted by BigBadBabar View Post
jesse, what's your thought process behind your flop play?
yeah no ****! ... the turn is completely irrelevant at this point ... you described the flop as if your play is completely standard .... ???
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Old 10-23-2008, 01:07 PM   #12
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Re: Can I FSDR OOP?

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Originally Posted by HammerinHank View Post
This hand may or may not be a mess, but don't worry, Jesse play goot
This is like two blind men saying the other sees real good.



I have a friend in software development who basically got his position removed. Still scrambling for a job, an old manager hired him to do basically the lowest possible position for a software engineer -- fixing bugs for customer issues.

This is basically akin to cleaning toilets, for an engineer.

Being a bright young fellow, he quickly rose to the top of his group (a bunch of subpar engineers) and became the department's superstar.

I had lunch with him and told him something new I had discovered while visiting a shopping mall during the day on a weekday.

I told him --

"When you go to the mall during the day on a weekday, there are basically two groups of people there. There are the stay-at-home moms strolling around with their newborn babies. And there are the groups of retarded people walking around being led by their caretaker. Apparently the mall is a good place to take retarded people because it's enclosed, it's not crowded during the weekdays, there's food, there's air-conditioning, etc. I don't know why, but those are the only people at the mall. The rest of the population probably has to work."

So he said to me, "Captain R, what are you saying? Are you saying I'm retarded?"

I said, "no Mike, you're not retarded. You're a smart guy and doing very well. It's just that you're the leader of the retards."

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Old 10-23-2008, 02:44 PM   #13
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Re: Can I FSDR OOP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBadBabar View Post
jesse, what's your thought process behind your flop play?
Well I bet because that's actually a very good flop for me and it's still fairly likely that I have the best hand. I 3-bet because....and I realize this doesn't make much sense here in black and white....it just "felt" like he was FOS and I had another guy padding the pot in case I was wrong. I guess I can't really justify it other than this guy was making all sorts of plays with hands that didn't quite justify it, and I thought my sevens were still good a fair amount of the time, even after he raised.
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Old 10-23-2008, 02:45 PM   #14
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Re: Can I FSDR OOP?

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Originally Posted by HammerinHank View Post
If you c/r now I think it should be the last dollar you put into the pot.
Obviously
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Old 10-23-2008, 02:50 PM   #15
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Re: Can I FSDR OOP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tryptamean View Post
yeah no ****! ... the turn is completely irrelevant at this point ... you described the flop as if your play is completely standard .... ???
I realize it's not and I tried to explain it with my reads. What does everyone else do on the flop? Bet/call and then check/fold the turn UI, getting blown off second pair by a club draw?

I mean, for those of you in the Bay Area, this wasn't at Bay 101....In the same game I saw the turn bet/3-bet by 5 2 on a board of 872-7, then followed up with a bet on the river 8. A player with pocket queens made the call down and won the sucker.
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Old 10-23-2008, 02:53 PM   #16
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Re: Can I FSDR OOP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain R View Post
This is like two blind men saying the other sees real good.



I have a friend in software development who basically got his position removed. Still scrambling for a job, an old manager hired him to do basically the lowest possible position for a software engineer -- fixing bugs for customer issues.

This is basically akin to cleaning toilets, for an engineer.

Being a bright young fellow, he quickly rose to the top of his group (a bunch of subpar engineers) and became the department's superstar.

I had lunch with him and told him something new I had discovered while visiting a shopping mall during the day on a weekday.

I told him --

"When you go to the mall during the day on a weekday, there are basically two groups of people there. There are the stay-at-home moms strolling around with their newborn babies. And there are the groups of retarded people walking around being led by their caretaker. Apparently the mall is a good place to take retarded people because it's enclosed, it's not crowded during the weekdays, there's food, there's air-conditioning, etc. I don't know why, but those are the only people at the mall. The rest of the population probably has to work."

So he said to me, "Captain R, what are you saying? Are you saying I'm retarded?"

I said, "no Mike, you're not retarded. You're a smart guy and doing very well. It's just that you're the leader of the retards."

If you actually did this to "friend", I'd hate to see how you treat people you don't like. We can't all have jobs that allow us to play poker for 15 hours a week between 11am and 3pm you know
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Old 10-23-2008, 02:55 PM   #17
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Re: Can I FSDR OOP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jesse8888 View Post
... and I thought my sevens were still good a fair amount of the time, even after he raised.
i agree with this, but it supports an argument to call, not re-raise

Do you feel that you beat him more than 50% of the time?
Do you feel that the fish always has a worse hand?

I think the answer to both of those questions is no..
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Old 10-23-2008, 03:00 PM   #18
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Re: Can I FSDR OOP?

You don't need to fold good turn cards.

It's just that you don't have the best hand a ton, and even if you do, your measly pair of 7s doesn't stand to win a whole heck of a lot.

If you want to lead out on a good turn card to prevent it from being checked through because you "feel" like the prop doesn't have you beat, that's not horrible. However, jamming with second pair and and such a crap redraw is really bad.
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Old 10-23-2008, 03:09 PM   #19
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Re: Can I FSDR OOP?

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You don't need to fold good turn cards.

It's just that you don't have the best hand a ton, and even if you do, your measly pair of 7s doesn't stand to win a whole heck of a lot.

If you want to lead out on a good turn card to prevent it from being checked through because you "feel" like the prop doesn't have you beat, that's not horrible. However, jamming with second pair and and such a crap redraw is really bad.
Yeah. 3betting this flop really accomplishes very little. You're OOP so you can't eval+check behind bad turns, everyone that was in, is staying in etc. etc etc.

I like a flat+donk line.
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Old 10-23-2008, 03:27 PM   #20
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Re: Can I FSDR OOP?

Jesse. After the prop raises the flop and everyone and there mother calls no one is going anywhere, thus the only point to betting this flop is for value. You don't have value here. Even if you are ahead already, they have a combined 9 zillion outs to beat you and you have no re-draw. Call and pray for a 7.
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Old 10-23-2008, 03:34 PM   #21
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Re: Can I FSDR OOP?

is this garden city max? older asian guy with short buzzy type hair and glasses that usually plays on the weekends only? i think there is only 1 GC prop that works weekends, last time i was in the loop there, is it frank that is the prop here? have no idea who the other 2 described are, but when they both call 2 cold, i dont think you can be too optimistic with 7s.

btw, who cares about opening 77 utg, it's a fucking bay area table, you are way ahead of whatever these numbfuckss are calling you with
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Old 10-23-2008, 04:17 PM   #22
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Re: Can I FSDR OOP?

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Jesse. After the prop raises the flop and everyone and there mother calls
Where everyone and their mother is...one guy....who's loose. And awful. And aggro....
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Old 10-23-2008, 04:19 PM   #23
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Re: Can I FSDR OOP?

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is this garden city max? older asian guy with short buzzy type hair and glasses that usually plays on the weekends only? i think there is only 1 GC prop that works weekends, last time i was in the loop there, is it frank that is the prop here? have no idea who the other 2 described are, but when they both call 2 cold, i dont think you can be too optimistic with 7s.

btw, who cares about opening 77 utg, it's a fucking bay area table, you are way ahead of whatever these numbfuckss are calling you with
That's pretty good profanity filter avoidance. A+

And yes, the prop was Asian Frank. The lag-fish in the 9 seat was previously unknown to me, but he described himself as "fat old white guy in a black baseball cap" while trying to hit on the dealer.

And where is everyone finding this second mythical cold-caller on the flop? I bet, Prop raised, lag-fish took two cold, two folds, I 3-bang. I had 2 opponents, one of whom would call 2 cold with napkins and the other of whom was a laggy prop.
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Old 10-23-2008, 04:23 PM   #24
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Re: Can I FSDR OOP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jesse8888 View Post
Well I bet because that's actually a very good flop for me and it's still fairly likely that I have the best hand. I 3-bet because....and I realize this doesn't make much sense here in black and white....it just "felt" like he was FOS and I had another guy padding the pot in case I was wrong. I guess I can't really justify it other than this guy was making all sorts of plays with hands that didn't quite justify it, and I thought my sevens were still good a fair amount of the time, even after he raised.
Jesse, I see that you have decided to turn pro. Good for you and best of luck with it. The only reason I mention it, is that I would think as a pro, you would like to minimize variance not increase it. Here's a case of where you may be good, but you have two more big streets of betting still and there are a ton of cards that you aren't going to like. OOP, if you resign yourself to calling down, you are letting your opponents play perfectly against your range. The prop's cap is correct if he has the nut flush draw or combo flush/straight and wants to punish the fish, particularly if he thinks he can get the river with the turn checking through, or knocking the fish out with the flop cap (unlikely, but he's already called two cold), let's get him to put in two more.

I don't like the flop 3-bet, while your hand may be good, it's very vulnerable. If you are looking to minimize variance, just call, and b/c safe turns, and then evaluate on the river if you think your hand is still good.
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Old 10-23-2008, 04:35 PM   #25
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Re: Can I FSDR OOP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jesse8888 View Post
That's pretty good profanity filter avoidance. A+

And yes, the prop was Asian Frank. The lag-fish in the 9 seat was previously unknown to me, but he described himself as "fat old white guy in a black baseball cap" while trying to hit on the dealer.

And where is everyone finding this second mythical cold-caller on the flop? I bet, Prop raised, lag-fish took two cold, two folds, I 3-bang. I had 2 opponents, one of whom would call 2 cold with napkins and the other of whom was a laggy prop.
well, its pretty pointless to discuss specific hands when frank's involved in a hand, because he knows how to adjust to the table well, so it's gonna be difficult for anybody to give any real credible advice here unless they were seated at the table that day. that said, 3 betting here is not neccessarily that horrible if it was just you and frank but you know once lag-fish called 2, he's calling 2 more. who in the bay area calls action on the flop and folds for some additional bets? no one at that table obviously.

yeah, misread the initial post, you wrote "LP cold caller folds", i just read the first 3 parts and obviously zoned out the "fold".

you don't like playing with max? id love to play him headsup all day, he's an ego player (if it's the same guy we're talking about) and has so many what appear to be random tendacies, but there's a nice pattern to him; that and the fact that he'll draw to draws with absolutely ridiculous poor pot odds over and over. he gets away with buying tons of pots off passive players. frank, on the other hand, is somebody i respect at the table and i barely respect anybody at the tables.

the garden city tables are the best, wish i hadn't sworn to not play there anymore btw, skimmed over your blog on the other thread, id be careful of playing at AJs, i played the 15 there for ages, but would leave when certain players would sit down fwiw
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