Haha, yeah I think you make a fair point.

i dislike some stuff here. depending on what MP is, i may not be a fan of the open. A4s is fine in later position, but with a crusher in the bb and loose/agro folks behind you, this is the absolute bottom of your range (again though depending on what MP is). if it's, say, 9 handed and you're 4th to act, i fold this. it's like being UTG in 6max w/ a crusher in the bb and loose guys behind you. and even though the hand plays well multiway, most likely you'll end up either 2-3 ways for 2-3 bets where you're in the middle and not in position.

this hand is similar in value to KJs and I'm folding that too with 3 people to act behind me and the blinds when the bb is a great player.

change the bb to a bad player and this is nearly playable.

given that you raised and were called in two spots pf, i definitely dislike the flop check. you don't want to have a completely polarized kb range when you're sandwiched between two people since you'll be betting a vast majority of time. given it's a multiway pot, and given your position, you can check and fold the absolute worst hands in your range and not need balance here (you'll have plenty of balance when you're in position. but being in the middle, it isn't necessary imo).

further, there's a whole mess of hands that the CO can fold that you want him to fold and if he calls or raises you're not in terrible shape. also, if he raises, at least that forces the bb to define his hand or fold, either is good for you since it makes your decisions easier.

if i had raised A5s pf, then i'd check this board. but not w/ a piece of it and outs if behind.

on the turn and river i don't really know how i'd play it since i wouldn't have been in this spot, but given the cold call and the pot size, you have to call the turn. and once you call the turn, it's very tempting to call that river. the CO can have a few missed draws and you're getting a great price. so i'd lean towards calling this river against the guy you described, but it's def close.

finally, re: the flop, i'm not sure i call there if i did check and it went b/r. sure the bb CAN have hands like overs or draws, but now you're against 2 people with a relatively indeterminate strength hand, but a ton of the time you're gunna be in a bad spot on the turn and you don't close the action on the flop (co who you said is agro can still reraise, then you're pretty much stuck).

so i'd probably toss it for 2 getting 4.5:1 immediate odds in that spot.

KJs is way better than A4s. But, agree that A4s it's near the bottom for MP range.


What can BB have? My guess is that he made a bad river fold with a weak showdown hand.

It only looks like BS if you always bet your value and have a completely decapitated check range.

He did say he butchered every street in the thread title, so pre-flop lightness is already a given. But seriously, it's worse with a tricky player on your left to open light. Predictable players belong on your left, and if you do open light, table conditions need to be favourable. River depends on whether CO is betting ace high OTF, and continuing with the bluff on the turn and river. Pretty ballzy/spazzy bluff if so.

Also, the added value of a 4 that looks like an A and an A that looks like a 4, and you can say after the hand is over, OMG I thought I had a set, or AA, hahahaha. If you have sets in your check-back range, which perhaps you should if you're playing against aggressive opponents who go to war, then it makes sense.

BUT, it almost makes sense to call with both A4 and 44 as a package deal because then they do not know if you are the man in the middle on the big streets or trying to spike on them in a sizeable pot.

This might be a decent hand to turn into a bluff on the turn, and c/r the turn if that's your line for 44, or 3-bet the flop if that's your favored line. I know it's not a perfectly GTO way to look at it, but pretend you have 44 here some of the time.

I don't think it's loose pre at all

How often do you think you need to c/r this flop and action? And how often do you think the average player actually does it?

It looks like bull**** because that's what it usually is. It's a pretty bad idea for someone who easily gets lost in hands to bloat a pot, against a tricky opponent and a crusher, with a very polarized range that smells like bull****

This post explains better than I ever could why it looks like bull****

Depending on how BB views CO he could also have made a thin raise to force PV off anything and isolate, picked up enough to peel turn, and then had to bail since PV didn't look like he really wanted to fold.

Like KQ hypothetically trying to get PV off a weak ace

We're only talking about polarizing two hands, not the entire range. If for example you added AA in the same basket, that's 6 AA, 9 sets, and only 2 bottom pair with back-door flush draw, and calling down, assuming the rest of the range balances out profitably would be a mistake. We are only adding 2 combos to bluff with in the range. This hand has good characteristics to bluff with

1) It may be the best hand
2) It has a backdoor flush draw (you can catch)
3) It contains an ace (so others do not contain that ace making TPTK less likely so it is a half decent blocker)

So I think it's okay to polarize 2 combos with 15 and balance out the rest of the range somehow. But I do not think it's okay to just polarize the whole range, if that makes sense. This hand is very very unique and has a lot of good bluffing equity to it. So AA,A4,set, all look the same to me.

Also, theoretically, shouldn't your bluffs be towards the top of your folding ranges?

add: I should say over-represent rather than bluff, or bluffing with the best hand to be more precise.

You keep using the word bluff. What hands do you think you're actually going to bluff?

To be fair I hadn't even considered the importance of us having an ace in our hand blocking the cold caller from AJ. It also makes it less likely he has AA so don't forget that too

Pocket pais that did not like the flop would fold, and you might get to wedge mid pair off. Hard to know. Given the uncoordinated board it's hard for your opponent to put you on this hand.

AKA your line looks like complete bull**** so people are going to call you down with everything. This is limit. When you confuse people they don't fold, they just call down

When you don't know what to do in a hand, randomly donk c/3'betting a tricksy opponent and a crusher, without a plan isn't going to be a winning play long term.

Could you elaborate on why it seems exploitable?

I think the line looks way more like strength than it does like BS. That said, bad/mediocre players do make huge (often incorrect) folds all the time. I know this because I spent over a year recording the hand #s for bluffs I would make on Bovada (spots like this, river c/r bluff etc.) and checking to see what my opponent held when he folded. As we know, Bovada/Ignition lets you see what your opponent held 24 hours after the hand took place.

Bad players make folds a lot more frequently than you might expect...

Do you GTO guys just immediately put everything in a vacuum? Loose, tricksy and crusher are not the kind of guys you to try and blast off hands by taking random strange lines.

Also have you ever read anything LoL has ever posted? He gives strategy advice like he's doing a poker madlib. If I were a gambling man, I'd bet most of his game time decisions are based solely on an internal die roll or on what object is shiniest at the table. His reasoning for the line is 'I don't know. Hopefully it's random enough it works for some reason." How many hands do you think a crusher needs before he learns LoL gets easily lost in hands?

You think it looks like strength because from you it does. When LOL does it going to mean 'that guy has bottom pair and doesn't know what to do with it yet again' very quickly

Playing live and analyzing hands are two different things. In retrospect it looks like a good hand to rep a set w for the reasons I stated but game speed is harder to play. It will obviously not take too long for crusher to notice if we're always check/calling down w bottom pair and exploit that. It's not even GTO to realize we should play a weak hand strong, and a strong hand weak from time to time. It's standard poker theory. And this hand has good factors. But yes I can be rando at times I admit. Frankly I'm rolling the dice here.

No reason to get personal.

Well I would almost never check the flop here and I'm not really sure why we are talking about LOL. I guess maybe it has to do with the games I've played lately (just anonymous online 30/60), but if I see a random check/3bet here, it is a lot more likely to be AJ+ than it is to be anything else. People just don't really check/3bet 99 or AK here in the games I play. If the board was more draw heavy it would be different.

Slot machines also confuse people, fwiw. That's the whole point, if they always pull the handle they sometimes win. I have nothing left to add.

We're talking about him because you replied to a comment where I was talking about him

Lol


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Some people like their poker strategy to be more in depth than 'do random things and hope people are confused'

This thread has left me very confused fwiw