So here's a interesting spot where i found myself s bit lost on turn given the infrequency at which plauerw check back here (even though it's often corrrecr) and the parlay with this exact turn card hitting.

2-4 Holdem, action player opens utg 6-7 handed and very good player 3 bets cutoff. I call AJ bb (pretty sure he assumes I don't cap).

Flop is AQTr and it checks through.

At this point I think cutoff range is weighted fairly heavily towards KQ/JQ and possibly few less KTs type hands and stuff like 66-99 that's just not gonna waste a bet.

Turn is a Q I check... utg bets cutoff looks like he's contemplating raising but calls pretty quickly....

I call.

Well, it's a classic range and pot odds question, isn't it? (I guess there's a tad of reverse implied odds if you call, and the river goes bet-fold-fur coat call in the big pot, but it's mostly range and pot odds.) It's such a good example of one that it could even be posted in the small stakes forum and get some discussion there.

It's pretty clear you think one of them has a queen and that both of them have a ton of broadway cards in their range. You are getting 11-1 on your call and you think your hand is basically almost never good here (because of the number of queens in the three bettor's range), so let's focus on your draw.

You have 2 outs to an ace, which are usually good, but become 1 out to a chop if UTG has AQ or another ace, which may be in his range. (Does he cap with AQ? QQ?)

You have 4 outs to a king, which are no good if one of your opponents has KQ or KK (can the 3 bettor check KK behind on this board?), and which are only outs to a chop if any of them have a jack in their hand (KJ, QJ, JJ, and even J9 for UTG turned into a bluff all seem possible). And there would seem to be plenty of jacks in their range.

So I'll give 1.75 outs to the full house outs, and 1.5 outs to the straight outs. 3.25 outs getting 11 to 1 with a smidgen of reverse implied odds = I fold it.

Call. Doesn't he have any weak aces? Seems far more likely than a queen does after he doesn't raise the turn. Kk wouldn't surprise me either.

Easy call.

While weak Ax is possible ( I think way less likely thank KQ though) that certainly makes it far more likely UTG has trips+

UTG opens wide but he's not leading turn without at least Ax here (prob should have included that)

You still have your whole range (whatever it might be) and AJ should rank higher than either opponent can suspect up to this point. For this reason, I wouldn't try pigeon holing either of their hands into something that must beat AJ yet, so I'd call.

Did you miss a decimal point somewhere JL?

One thing to remember is that with one ace on the board and one in JL's hand, there's only two aces left in the deck and two opponents....

Not getting close to 11 to 1 on the turn

i'm intrigued cause i'm never folding here

You are right. The actual pot odds on the turn are 6 1/2 to 1.

We are closing the action right ?
easy call unless we try what, to see through cards ?

I never do as well, but I actually think it may be a fold. Or at least pretty close. But it's only close if we think UTg never leads turn with like 66 or even KT.

It's obviously a disaster if we're against like A5s and KK here. The main point to discuss is going to be cutoff check back range. And while I think he's going to check back KK/KQ st by far the highest frequency, I can't say for certain how often, if ever he checks back A9s type hands.


I feel like he will benefit far more by cheixng back KQ than A9 here but i could easily be wrong

I would much much rather bet the flop and check the turn. I dont like the flop check at all and I usually love checking back flops

I think you under estimate how often Checking back the turn isn't an option (you get raised a ton) BB range is very strong pre and I'd imagine both A9 and KQ are close to 2-1 dogs to Bb continuing range

I call turn. I probably fold river UI if the action goes UTG bet CO call, or UTG check CO bet, but call if it goes UTG bet CO fold.

Depends how 'actiony' UTG is (and how wide CO 3b is)

CO delay could mean he was thinking of making a move with KK/JJ/Tx -- get you to fold a better hand, show down vs UTG, fold if 3b.

His utg opening range is prettg reasonable except maybee on light side with hand alike QTo and similar but it was 6 handed or something. The K4s and J7s and 45s stfff were mostly getting open limped

I'd call the turn without really considering other options.

My question to those that want to fold the turn is this: What were you hoping to flop? What kind of action were you hoping for? Seems to me that if the turn is a fold, that we should just fold preflop.

Donking this flop is bad, OP is playing 200/400 not 10/20. Turn is a call but KQ gonna get up in that ass if we river broadway.

Jon hasn't given us enough information to evaluate pre-flop. Against tight enough ranges, this could be a fold. But he does characterize UTG as a maniac, and if the 3-bettor sees UTG as a maniac, that would create wide enough ranges that the call is plenty profitable.

The problem, though, is that the betting action has narrowed their ranges. First of all, the three bettor's check-back suggests neither a hand that crushed the flop nor a hand that turned into a bluff. So we end up with a range that has a lot of queens in it. And guess what card came on the turn? Plus Jon implies he picked up a physical tell, which also suggests a queen.

Further, UTG's bet out suggests he likes his hand. (This just looks like a really dumb spot to bluff given the ranges involved.) Now, it's true that this may include some Ax's we beat. But not that many, because he raised UTG. He's not showing up with A2 here. Further, he can have any of the broadway hands that crush this board, such as a hand with a Q in it, or KJ, as well.

Also, as I noted earlier, there are only 2 A's left in the deck. So we basically need both of these guys to have them, or exactly KK.

So both these guys have pretty narrow ranges with a lot of hands that beat us. But that's not because they will always have those hands. It's because the betting action gave us this information. Play the hand again, this time UTG has 99, the 3-bettor has 66, and we take it down on the turn with a bet or call down the 3-bettor's bluff.

One question that has occurred to me is whether UTG has a capping range here. It would be nice to take AA-QQ, and AK and AQs, for instance, out of his range.

Let's pretend we have AK here. How do people feel about check folding the turn?

AK makes KK less likely, but also KQ interestingly.

4bet pre if range is around QJ, because if adjusting to action player, action player must be raising all kinds of cheese. Against many opponents though this can be a fold, especially since the early range was from early. I lean towards 4bet, and am probably never calling here especially if cap is 4-bet because calling three narrows down the possibilities too much as to our holdings. I'd consider 4-betting KQs as well.

Your live read isn't very strong as to what your opponent has, imho. Is he acting to deter your action, or genuinely considering a raise? Also, you checked the turn making it more plausible that he may wish to iso raise w/ JJ v "action player" who may just be donking. Turn I think is a call. And I am probably calling the river as well.