20-40 live

3 people limp in, I raise JJ in sb, bb and others call.

Flop 944 rainbow.

I bet. For what it's worth, I often check in this kind of spot but think either betting or checking is a solid line and it's probably good to mix it up a bit. If anyone has any strong opinions on flop, fine, but I'm mostly interested in how to handle the turn.

Only the big blind calls. He is complete unknown to me. It's my second hand at the table, he folded the first one, and I've never seen him before.

Turn is an ace that completes rainbow. What is my plan?

I think betting flop is a no-brainer.

You bet turn, a 9 might fold and all the weak stuff that might bluff if you check.
While beside a 9, not many worst hand call your bet that you beat while if you get call or raise you are imo, more often than not, in big trouble.

i think you should get more value by checking than betting.
But this is on pure instinct, i could easily be wrong, it is not a spot i looked into it a lot.

Bet/call against an unknown. There shouldn't be too many aces in his range and ideally we would like to get 3 streets of value from 9x.

I'd probably bet JJ and check back KK

I like the flop bet planning to 3 bet. Bet the turn. The A should be better for your range than the BB's and we'll want to get value from his 9s and smaller pocket pairs. If raised I recommend a two step program - calling down followed by sipping scotch.

I usually just check call twice and see whats up in this situation.

I suppose whe do need to have some value hands in our range to bet since we will be barrelling this turn often UIP. I presume JJs slot nicely into the betting range since it will get the same value as KKs but JJs could use more protection. KKs can be used as a bluff catcher in this wa/wbish situation. Since we don't have a read, it would be optimistic to think we will get three streets of value and would be gross to have to bet/call.

Is this your thinking on this hand? Perhaps you have other thoughts.

I do not see any benefit to checking the flop. What's the thinking behind this?

I like this.

i check/call 2x here against an unknown. it probably loses a bet against 9x, but saves a bet against Ax or 4x, and it gives him the opportunity to light 2 bets on fire with his bluffs. obviously bet river if he checks back.

Theory behind checking flop would be sometimes you don't bet flop when you miss. So if you check flop with bad hands, you should also sometimes check it with good hands. This exact board is so dry I'm inclined to cbet with pretty much my whole range. So in that case I don't need to check any strong hands.

Usually the reason for not betting when you miss is because you're lighting money on fire, more than for balance - especially in a multi-way pot.
If you raise 88 and the flop is TQK, you're not checking for balance, you're checking because you almost certainly are going to lose the hand.

Same if you raise AK and the flop is T87. Against multiple opponents, betting the flop (especially OOP) is frequently going to be a waste of one small bet.

Agreed that you should generally bet most of your range on a 944 flop. Checking with JJ is just begging random overcards and lower pocket pairs to spike the turn against you for free.

I don't think anything you're saying is contradicting anything I was saying

You often check a 9 4 4 flop with JJ?? This is horrible imo. Every bet you miss in limit is money you can never recoup not to mention you got one of the best flops you can hope for and are giving free cards to A3 suited type hands KQ QJ Q10 any aces, any 9 I dont even care about the turn. If your rationale is you have to balance your range I would love to hear what hands you are also checking in this spot other than 99. In all honesty raises more red flags to check a flop like this than just to continuation bet. So not only are you giving free cards you probably are getting less action from thinking opponents who see you do this and are able to lose no money with 55-88 910 89 J9 suited.

Against an unknown I like bet/fold and check/decide on river if he calls

Yeah you are never checking this flop with any portion of your range.

If I feel like there are parts of my range that need to check to prevent lighting money on fire then I think it's important to also check some strong hands. If the combination of my preflop range, the board texture and the number of opponents is such that I feel like I can profitably bet my whole range then I don't need to check.

In this exact spot I felt like I could bet pretty much my whole range and be ok because the board was super dry and I have a pretty tight range here preflop. So I decided to bet the JJ. But I think it's pretty close because while the board is good for our range, we are up against 4 opponents. And so I wouldn't mind if someone decided to have a checking range on this flop.

Also I think raises from the blinds against a multi way field is where I see the most diversity amongst the preflop ranges of good players. I tend to have a range on the tighter side in this spot but i think someone who has a wider preflop range should be more inclined to have a checking range on this flop.

Instead of having a checking range you should widen your double- and triple-barreling ranges on this flop.

Actually the point is imo, you should not need to balance your range when it is a multi way pot like this.

The risk of losing value is too great with your strong hand for balancing purpose only.
I mean we usually balance our range for not getting exploited and be hard to read but when there is so many players in the pot how can you get exploited ?

If someone try to exploit you great, but he wont get trough the other players so it is pointless.

thanks for the laugh

It doesn't take a wizard to exploit you if you only bet with strong hands and only check with weak hands.

As far as losing value, you are going to offset times it checks through by times it doesn't and you get to check raise.

This is crucial to me. The best hand will win this the vast majority of the time. So what if my flop betting range is exactly 88+? If they all fold, my ev is (pot), which is pretty hard to improve upon unless they play backwards poker. With so many opponents, I think betting something like QJs would be charging myself to draw at a pair.

Thing is though that we raised in the worst possible position. Every hand in our range can profitably call a bet on the flop. Besides teaming up on us with bets and raises in an effort to collude, what can they realistically do to bring down our ev?

I don't think you can go too wrong by barreling your entire range twice in this spot on most turns when the flop is 944r. Limpers will peel this board with like K5s and fold if they don't turn a pair or a flush draw.

I'd bet/fold the turn and probably take myself to value town on the river if he doesn't raise.

It's 20/40 against limpers. They practically never have a bluff range on 944, or on 944-A.

I think most winning limit players would understand JJ isnt a great hand to give free cards in a 4 handed pot and would be betting all their premium hands medium strength hands and hands which missed flop but have a reasonable chance still being ahead. Also, you are encouraging people to call your preflop raises when they see you checking JJ and while some games you will always have multiple callers you don't wait to encourage it.