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Old 03-28-2009, 10:01 PM   #1
Captain R
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84 soooted!

Villains:

2+2 TAG (TAG)
LAG Asian guy (LAG)
Bizarre Asian guy (Bizarro)
Passive Asian guy (Passive)
Weak-tight old guy (Old guy)
Hero

I wasn't in the hand, but watched it and had a disagreement with Hero on how to play it.

TAG raises UTG, LAG cc's, Bizarro cc's, Passive cc's, Nit cc's, Hero calls in BB with 84.

Flop: T82 (6 players, 12.5 sb)
Question 1: Check or bet?

As played, Hero checks, UTG bets, LAG raises, Bizarro cold-calls, Passive folds, Old guy cold-calls.

Question 2: Re-raise, cold-call or fold?
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Old 03-28-2009, 10:25 PM   #2
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Re: 84 soooted!

With the raiser on your immediate right I CR for value all day every day, trap the field for multiple bets = awesome. Once it gets back to us I 3bet and hope the LAG caps.
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Old 03-28-2009, 11:51 PM   #3
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Re: 84 soooted!

Bremen insta wins the thread.
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Old 03-28-2009, 11:57 PM   #4
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Re: 84 soooted!

So we don't need to worry that someone has a bigger flush draw when it goes raise/4-coldcallers preflop, and then bet/raise/2-coldcallers on the turn?

Shouldn't suited Aces or other big suited cards be a big part of their ranges based on the action?
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Old 03-29-2009, 12:03 AM   #5
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Re: 84 soooted!

Another interesting theory question. As the number of flop cold-callers approaches infinity (or like 9 or whatever), should we be more inclined or less inclined to 3-bet for value?

We are getting more N:1 on our flush draw, but the probability that our flush draw is good is inversely proportional to the number of cold-callers, amirite?
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Old 03-29-2009, 01:43 AM   #6
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Re: 84 soooted!

Who cares, you have a pair and a flush draw. Your flush draw generally is gonna be good when it hits, your 8 is gonna be good nearly always when it hits, and your 4 will usually need to dodge a bunch of outs on the river, but will probably make you the best hand.

You have way too much equity to consider folding.
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Old 03-29-2009, 03:03 AM   #7
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Re: 84 soooted!

Generally if the entire table cold-calls a raise I'm not going to waste much time trying to figure out what random trash they all have. Now if we have an uber-nit or two who will only cold-call with a strong draw than I can forego a 3bet (although there are still straight draws possible, and few nits that transparent as most will cold-call with a T or worse as well). So while the odds that someone has a flush draw go up as more people cold-call the odds also go up that you're playing at a table full of morons.
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Old 03-29-2009, 03:23 AM   #8
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Re: 84 soooted!

For the record "weak tight old guy" was really only tight when compared to winning players. While he's certainly weak, he was only tight when compared to the other 5 guys who don't post on this forum at that table. Think old white guy who limps behind with Q7s and calls two bets cold with a gut shot in a 10 bet pot.

My status as Hero is secure
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Old 03-29-2009, 01:20 PM   #9
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Re: 84 soooted!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jesse8888 View Post
For the record "weak tight old guy" was really only tight when compared to winning players. While he's certainly weak, he was only tight when compared to the other 5 guys who don't post on this forum at that table. Think old white guy who limps behind with Q7s and calls two bets cold with a gut shot in a 10 bet pot.

My status as Hero is secure
Is there any 2+2-wide standard for what constitutes "an old guy."
I need to know if I qualify for benefits.

FWIW, I'm with Bremen on this hand.

bill
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Old 03-29-2009, 10:10 PM   #10
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Re: 84 soooted!

Not too much more to this hand, so I'll post results --

Flop: T82
Jesse check-3bets, UTG folds, LAG caps it, Bizarro and Old guy cold-call again.

Turn: 4 (5 players)
Jesse donks, UTG hollywoods and then just calls, Bizarro and Old guy call (all-in).

River: K (5 players)
Jesse bets, UTG folds (his obvious flush draw), Bizarro calls 5 chips with Q2o (bottom pair). Old guy has J9 and Jesse scoops.

The astute reader will note that Jesse actually had the best made hand and the worst draw on the flop, but he expertly 3-bet the best hand.
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Old 03-30-2009, 12:13 AM   #11
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Re: 84 soooted!

Pre-flop: I muck
Flop: I donk, you dont want this getting checked around under any circumstances.
As played, on flop: I cc, Im not horribly excited about our equity given we could be up against a bigger pair and bigger flush draw (this has happened to me a lot in the past).
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Old 03-30-2009, 12:16 AM   #12
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Re: 84 soooted!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bremen View Post
With the raiser on your immediate right I CR for value all day every day, trap the field for multiple bets = awesome. Once it gets back to us I 3bet and hope the LAG caps.
I dont understand this logic. This is a big field and you are assuming the pfr will just auto-bet this no matter what his holdings. And if he just checks and it gets checked around its a huge disaster. You let someone with an overcard who might not have peeled the flop win the hand. And "trapping" the field for multiple bets is not as great with this sort of hand as it appears.

Your acting like we flopped a set (where trapping the field for 2 bets on the flop is much more valueble and letting your opponents see a free card with their overcards that are drawing dead is much less of a disaster). Then a flop c/r is appropriate.
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Old 03-30-2009, 12:22 AM   #13
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Re: 84 soooted!

Quote:
Originally Posted by spino1i View Post
Pre-flop: I muck
Getting 11:1 I'm folding the bottom 5-15% of my range depending on how bad or good I'm running.

This is a great turn to c/r
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Old 03-30-2009, 12:32 AM   #14
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Re: 84 soooted!

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Originally Posted by StrictlyStrategy View Post
Getting 11:1 I'm folding the bottom 5-15% of my range depending on how bad or good I'm running.

This is a great turn to c/r
This always tilts me when people make loose calls pre-flop because they're getting massive odds but up against a massive field. Yes your getting good odds but you've got to make the best hand against a greater number of hands so those two things cancel each other out a lot of the time. Certain hands preform better in a big multi-way pots (such as Ax s00ted), and this hand is not one of them.

Also horrible spot for turn c/r. You have no idea whether the capper is on a draw and will check back as part of a free card play.
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Old 03-30-2009, 03:04 AM   #15
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Re: 84 soooted!

Quote:
Originally Posted by spino1i View Post
This always tilts me when people make loose calls pre-flop because they're getting massive odds but up against a massive field. Yes your getting good odds but you've got to make the best hand against a greater number of hands so those two things cancel each other out a lot of the time. Certain hands preform better in a big multi-way pots (such as Ax s00ted), and this hand is not one of them.

Also horrible spot for turn c/r. You have no idea whether the capper is on a draw and will check back as part of a free card play.
Spino, folding anything suited getting 11 to 1 is a ridiculous leak. This is not even remotely close and I would call w 84o.

Also, pls to be downloading Pokerstove. Donking flop is horrendous.

Last edited by MitchL; 03-30-2009 at 03:11 AM.
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Old 03-30-2009, 08:10 AM   #16
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Re: 84 soooted!

chances of this turn getting checked through

1:50
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Old 03-30-2009, 09:01 AM   #17
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Re: 84 soooted!

Bremen/Boc/CaptianR/Spino1i --

Much respect to the amount of posts and knowledge of Bremen and Boc but I really agree with what CaptainR and Spino1i are saying here. My gut is that our equity on this flop is not as good as it seems. I'm remembering a few times I got burned in situations like these, where after the cards were showed down i realized i was ramming/jamming a flop with like 3 outs instead of 13.

If I'm having a selective memory of only a few ugly situations in the past and its now costing me a bunch of spots for value then that's awful and I gotta change. But I need to see some math (PokerStove) to beleive that I am wrong in saying our equity on this flop is really not that great.

So Bremen/Boc - can you show me some math to support that our equity is huge vs the ranges of the villains in this hand?

Thank you if you can..

Last edited by RobA; 03-30-2009 at 09:02 AM. Reason: change a word
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Old 03-30-2009, 12:40 PM   #18
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Re: 84 soooted!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MitchL View Post
Spino, folding anything suited getting 11 to 1 is a ridiculous leak. This is not even remotely close and I would call w 84o.

Also, pls to be downloading Pokerstove. Donking flop is horrendous.
Ok the business about playing 84 s00ted or 84o from BB for 1 sb is something we can get into later and more of theory question.

What im more interested in you said its horrendous to donk this flop.. whats your reasoning here? Why is c/r'ing so much better?
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Old 03-30-2009, 01:09 PM   #19
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Re: 84 soooted!

Quote:
Originally Posted by spino1i View Post
Ok the business about playing 84 s00ted or 84o from BB for 1 sb is something we can get into later and more of theory question.

What im more interested in you said its horrendous to donk this flop.. whats your reasoning here? Why is c/r'ing so much better?
I am not going to ever go into why playing 84h for 1sb getting 11 to 1, because that belongs in the beginner's forum. I am seriously shocked that you would ever consider folding this. As far as the cr goes well we have utg as pfr. This is a T82 flop so he should be betting it alot of the time. If he doesnt someone will. We dont mind someonelse in mp or lp betting, but cring the field is sure alot better than him raising and driving everyone out or him just calling/keeping the pot small.
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Old 03-30-2009, 01:18 PM   #20
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Re: 84 soooted!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MitchL View Post
I am not going to ever go into why playing 84h for 1sb getting 11 to 1, because that belongs in the beginner's forum. I am seriously shocked that you would ever consider folding this. As far as the cr goes well we have utg as pfr. This is a T82 flop so he should be betting it alot of the time. If he doesnt someone will. We dont mind someonelse in mp or lp betting, but cring the field is sure alot better than him raising and driving everyone out or him just calling/keeping the pot small.
Ok after looking at some pokerstove data i retract what i say about not playing 84 s00ted. But I still wouldnt play 84 offsuit. I guess im going to be a bit looser with calling from the BB in big multiway raised pots from now on.

As for donking vs. c/r'ing, I realize its more ideal to donk when you are 1st to act and pfr is last to act, vs better to c/r when you are 1st to act and pfr is 2nd to act, but also realize that the more oop the pfr is the less likely he is to bet, and I think assuming someone will always bet here is a mistake. I do admit it would be bad if we donked, pfr raised and the field folded a bunch of random crap we want them to ge trapped in with.
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Old 03-30-2009, 02:28 PM   #21
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Re: 84 soooted!

Donking vs. c/r'ing...

I thought this hand was interesting because we have both a (marginal) made hand and a strong draw. It seems to me that you could create a sliding scale of hands that all have similar equity (say AA, this hand, and something like J7) that ranges from pure made hand with no draw to pure draw with no showdown value. But I don't think we play the hands the same just because they have the same equity.

I mean, if we had AT or A8 I would seriously consider donk'ing here.

84 is somewhat similar, except our made hand is weaker and our draw is stronger. If we bet and UTG raises (especially if UTG is able to do this with like QJs or AX or just plain overs) and clears everyone out, it wouldn't bother me much because we usually have at least 50% equity in a ginormous pot where we've isolated a bunch of dead money. Pretty much any scenario that happens after we donk seems fine to me (a bunch of callers, a bunch of folders, a raise and a bunch of cold-calls... whatever).
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Old 03-30-2009, 04:38 PM   #22
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Re: 84 soooted!

Fun hand. A few things to note....

The table dynamic was such that I was like 100% sure that:

1. This flop was not getting checked around.
2. If I did donk and UTG raised, I wasn't going to be lonely for opponents.

Everybody was calling 2, 3 bets cold like it was nothing. Those guys were amazingly loose and bad. I thought my play of the hand was super standard (I never considered check/raising the turn exactly because of what I just said....people were calling 2 or 3 bets with anything. The chance of the turn checking through was actually a LOT higher than 50:1). I run better than I play obviously, but that is a known and provable fact
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Old 03-30-2009, 04:42 PM   #23
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Re: 84 soooted!

flop donk

"hi everyone whats up just lettin you guys know i have a flush draw"
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Old 03-30-2009, 04:49 PM   #24
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Re: 84 soooted!

Quote:
Originally Posted by StrictlyStrategy View Post
flop donk

"hi everyone whats up just lettin you guys know i have a flush draw"
LOLz yeah I do that like all the time though and somehow it gets lost in the translation
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Old 03-30-2009, 06:06 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StrictlyStrategy View Post
flop donk

"hi everyone whats up just lettin you guys know i have a flush draw"
This exactly. I doubt hero ever has monsterd in his range when he donks this flop.
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