I've played at a lot of different casinos in all parts of the country, and I also believe that someone trying to selectively chop is extremely rare.

Playing across the country isn't the same as playing all your volume is a single casino that may or may not have a higher ratio of POS than other casinos.

Besides, until a month ago you'd never heard of someone changing their mind on chopping, so I'm going to take your chopping observations with a grain of salt

I've spent a fair amount of time playing in a number of card rooms, including some of the ones most known for having a high ratio of POS (read: Commerce, Bay101). But that's beside the point. If someone plays in a game with a ton of angle shooters it only makes sense to protect against that. But my guess is that most people, including those who refuse to chop based on the angle shooting rationale, aren't playing in those games. After all, 6Max's description of angle shooters being "out there" is a far cry from something like, "my game is littered with angle shooters," but I'm sure he can speak for himself and let us know if I'm wrong.

That's not what I said in that thread, so I'm going to take your memory with a grain of salt.

Anyway, I have often seen people on 2+2 say that they chop when at home with regulars they know, but don't chop when travelling (especially to Vegas), because they are afraid they will get angle shot. Well, that's a silly reason, because it is extremely unlikely to happen. And Vegas is not full of angle-shooters, either regs or tourists. Even in southern CA, where I also have played a good amount, and where I have run into the most angleshooters, this particular angle is not one I worry about in the least.

I have definitely played against ppl that suddenly decide to play a hand but were previously chopping. While it isn't because they are ignorant/new, they are basically also never local regs. It has never bothered me when someone "randomly" decides not to chop, but it does mean we aren't chopping the next time. Some ppl get offended; I think of it as my happy place.

My hard rule is I'm never chopping with 5 or less. I will give some wiggle room to 6-handed but if the game is playing tight, like multiple chops an orbit, I'm announcing that I'm playing all hands.

I always chop 20/40 and below, but usually play at 40/80 because almost no one else chops and it's far too easy for me to end up with an expert on my left and fish on my right.

Chopping tends to keep the games a lot more friendly and that's a good thing.
When rec players who normally chop end up losing 6 BB's to a non-chopping pro, that tends to make them unhappy and can kill the mood of the game.

View: selectively chopping is not angling.

Terrible player on your right so you play; good player, then maybe you chop. Good player on your left so you ask to chop; bad player, you choose to play. You adjust your range based on your opponent -- where is the angle?

Too many people feel too entitled / take for granted chopped blinds. If someone looks at their SB and finds aces and this one time and decides to play, they are not 'angling' you: you aren't entitled to anything.

Lol do you really believe that?

You aren't adjusting your range based on skill of the opponent, you are adjusting the rules of the game based on his skill set

I wouldn't call it "angling" because angling to me means exploiting the rules in a hyper-technical fashion or doing something technically legal but designed to unfairly deceive another player.

But selectively chopping IS dumb and nasty. What I would say to you about it is this-- poker is a social game. That means it is both a game (a competition) and social.

And the "social" part means that sometimes you shouldn't wring every cent of short term expected value out of the game if it will drive away other players or make them not want to play with you.

Here's an example. Suppose a big fish misreads his hand at a showdown, throws it forward towards the muck, and then realizes his mistake and pulls his cards back before the dealer mixes them in the muck.

The dumb, nasty player demands the dealer muck the hand, berates the dealer for not doing so, and calls the floor.

The smart, social player says nothing and lets the fish pull his hand back unless the cards are truly mixed in the muck and not identifiable. Because we want everyone to feel that this is a social game where we all want the best hand to win and we don't take advantage of players for honest mistakes.

For the same reasons you generally should not call string bets and should not force bets to remain in the pot where a player misreads the action and wants to take her bet back before the next player acts.

What message do you think it sends to fish when obvious good players chop with their friends but insist on playing blind versus blind against the fish? Is that a game that the fish is going to want to come back and play in? Is that the sort of behavior that is going to cause other players to enjoy playing against you?

No, it's not an angle. But it's dumb, and it's nasty, and you shouldn't do it.

I agree with all that.

I do think at the 20/40 level most players don't find it alarming when someone doesn't chop. I think the only game I've played in where the players would be taken aback is the 20/40 at the Peppermill in Reno. Commerce, Fortune in WA, Bellagio... no one really seems to care.

lol at being offended/bothered by somebody wants to play the poker game that's dealt.

gimme a break

You say that like there aren't heaps of people out there that are outraged when you bet them heads up or open from the button... God forbid not chopping.

I've played in many a 4/8 game where someone has made a snide indirect remark about me after I raise a bunch of hands or check-raise them, saying something along the lines of "I'm just here to have fun. I'm not here to make money" while giving me a look like I'm ruining everyone's friendly party.

I haven't broke this retort out yet, but it's pretty fitting: "You know what I find fun about playing poker? Playing poker."

In general chopping is bad for the game b/c there is always that one ******ed fish that thinks it's ok to chop the 82o and won't chop the KK in the same down. And when a "pro" is on your left he won't chop but will chop time pots and will also chop when a better player or good friend is on his left.

In online play poker is pure, it protects against this scummy stuff and forces players to play the hand. As poker should be.

we aren't talking about 4/8. At 4/8 i'd be chopping cause lol rake. but still, it's not hard to say it's fun for you to play the binds if they say something after you say you always play. It doesn't have to be confrontational...

If they can't handle it? owell that's on them.

They weren't "there to have fun" a minute ago when they tried to extract value from you on the river.

Situation.
You play a game where there is a bad beat jackpot ( lose with quad 9 or higher for example) or the game have a bonus for high hand (quad 2 or better).

You are in the SB or BB no matter , and usually you agree to chop.

But first before deciding you check your card and see you have a hand that could potentially end up being qualify for the bonus and you decide to play and not chop.

Is it wrong ?
Is that angle shooting ?
You think the opponent will take it badly ?
Thx

Most regs have some kind of agreement regarding this and do not take it badly, and whoever wins the hand usually returns the blind to the other player.

However, be aware what doing this is costing you. In many rooms, some rake / drop will be taken upon seeing the flop. Personally I don't think the BBJ is a good deal for players to begin with; in a headsup hand it is even less likely to be hit, and if you are paying more than $1 for the privilege of trying to hit, checking it down is almost certainly massively -EV.

First of all, almost every hand could hit a jackpot, so not chopping with a "jackpot hand" is silly.

Most players will be offended, because you are usually doing this with a strong hand, but then chopping with a weak hand. Certainly unethical, and maybe worse.

However, during an aces cracked promotion, I have seen players not chop aces, hoping to check it down and lose. The chances of hitting this bonus is much higher than a jackpot, so I think it makes sense. If I were to do this and win, I would give back whatever my opponent lost. But I don't think I've ever seen anyone do that.

I think in most rooms only a pocket pair or suited connector can win a jackpot. And that has to be true for both players in the blinds. So it doesn't happen that much. Usually one player sneakily asks if the other has a jackpit hand, and they only play it out if both do.

A lot of rooms don't allow you to pass chips. IMO the way it should play is that if the second player can beat aces on the river, they bet so that they get 2 BB less rake and the player with aces gets the jackpot.

Since we talk about jackpot hands and angling here, allow me to tell one of my favorite stories.

I was in Commerce once and the hand folded around to the SB and me, in the BB.

As many players do, the guy asked "do you have a jackpot hand?".

I looked at my cards and said "no".

The guy then said "I raise, then".

(Since that hand, my answer to the jackpot hand question is always "no".)

My answer is always "I haven't looked". If there is a possibility for me to chop, I never look at my hand until someone else has put money in the pot. I still want and expect to chop regardless of the hands. If someone refused, then I would never chop with them again, but I've never had this happen.

By offering to chop, your opponent already admits to having negligible prospects or not being able to beat the rake.

I routinely will chop with anyone in any size game.

And trust me, most of these people do NOT want to play me heads up.