Two somewhat standard hands vs. Jesse8888 but each one has a street that could be up for debate. Might as well post them and see what happens...

Commerce 40, 9-handed

Hand 1: Biggest fish in the game (uber loose, uber passive, never wins) open-limps. Jesse "iso-raises" the button, which means he has two cards higher than a 7, or an A/K in the hand somewhere, or a pair. I 3-bet AA from the SB. BB (weak-tight) calls cold, fish calls, Jesse just calls (he does/should have a capping range here but I don't know how wide it is; but also probably thinks my 3! range here is fairly strong).

Flop K98. I bet, BB folds, limper calls, Jesse raises, I 3!, limper folds, Jesse calls.

Turn 3. I bet, Jesse raises, I call.

River J. I check, Jesse bets, and I... ?



Hand 2: Different table, even juicier. I open J10 in EP. Jesse 3-bets in MP. Button, a horrible, loose, weird, mostly very passive fish who sometimes does weird things like limp-reraising AK, takes 3 to the chin. BB also calls cold. I need to expand my capping range beyond ultra-premiums, so I cap, mostly for deception, but JTs has pretty good equity 4-ways (given what hands btn and BB can have) so there is some value here too. Plus my relative position on Jesse is great because the two fish are trapped in between us.

Flop Q105. BB checks, I c-bet, Jesse raises. Button calls 2 cold, BB folds. I call.

Turn Q. I check, Jesse bets, button snapcalls, I call.

River K.

Rank your options here:
1) Donk and
...a) if Jesse raises: call or fold?
2) Donk and
...b) if Jesse calls and btn raises: call or fold?
3) Check and
...a) if Jesse bets and btn calls or folds: raise or call?
...b) if Jesse bets and btn raises: fold or call?
...c) if Jesse checks and btn bets: call to collect an overcall or raise for value?

Hand 2:
You obviously check. Betting seems really lame, I cannot name a hand that Jesse would play this way and NOT bet the river. Does he even 3-bet your EP raise with KJ?

Assuming Jesse has AA/KK/QQ/TT/AQ:

AA 6
KK 3
QQ 1
AQ 8
TT 3

You lose to 7, and beat 14 hands. More than 14 if he ever plays AK this way. C/r river IMO. If btn raises, I would just call I guess. If you both check and button bets, I think Jesse is always overcalling the river, so I would hollywood-tank, pretend you have JJ, and call.

Hand 1 you should always lose but you have to call anyway. Hand 2 check fold

Can you explain Hand 2? Check/folding seems pretty terrible. Why am I calling the turn if I'm going to check/fold a flush?

I have never played with Jesse nor PJ, but what is Jesse's opinion of PJ's EP range? Does Jesse have KQs, QJs, QTs, or AhJh in his range? Although AhJh really shouldn't be raising the flop, so I think you can probably eliminate that from Jesse's range, but probably not button, although that probably doesn't really matter unless it goes bet raise to you.

I would like to hear more.

I default bet/fold here

Im gonna guess our donkey missed that we had a flush in hand two. Id hate no money going in on that river so id donk it. Hand 1 is standard if you call river.

There's no way he read that post and missed the flush, given that most of the paragraph was whether to donk, check raise, or check call.

If he didn't see the flush draw he'd say to fold the turn.

I think dd is claiming that Jesse doesn't bet a queen or a straight here, so a bet means a boat. But that's just ridiculous to me. Of course Jesse bets AQ. And if he checks, then button could be betting worse, eg J9. Check folding can only be right if Jesse bets and button raises and we're faced with two cold.

I think you vastly underestimate DD's ability to misread an HH.

Perhaps. He also may not have seen the paragraph below question whether to donk or c/r, and just grunched after the river card.

But I'm wondering now if he did misread the HH and missed the flush draw, why he was cool with the turn call. Does he think Jesse has AK/KJ often enough after the flop and turn action that we sometimes have the best hand?

Let's just add another hypothetical then. Let's say the turn is the Q. Do we c/c or c/f?

stopping here...why does jesse think your 3b range is fairly strong here? given your description of his range, your 3b range here should probably look something like (i.e. be slightly tighter than) your MP open range.

imo, see above. his range is pretty wide here as it could include the same draws he had on the flop and is waiting for the turn to wait for this (very good) opportunity to include those hands in his raise/call, raise line when you likely have a weaker 3b hand than normal and are oop.

you must at the very least call down. i don't think you 3b the turn but i think this is rarely a fsdr so either 3b now and charge draws, risking the random 2prs which are like all in his range or call now k/r riv.

that card officially sux.

you cannot fold.

wtf is this? you're at the bottom of your value range...in fact, this IS the bottom of your value range. do not put in any further bets on the river. no more bets go in the pot. you are WAY behind here. literally. every.single.hand.in.his.range.beats.you.

i'm either missing something or ... see above lol.


EDIT: WOWWWWWWWWWW. totally missed the flush (turns out i was missing something lol). k/r 4 sho.

I feel weird, because the first thing I saw in hand 2 was the flush.

More seriously, I think your decision point on hand 1 is actually the TURN. Yep, you heard me, the turn.

I would call down. I payoff with aces. I can't help myself. But IF you think Jesse puts you on a narrow range when you 3-bet, such that Jesse's turn raise MUST mean he is saying he has an overpair beat, then that's when you would fold. If you call the turn, the Jack does not change the equity all that much. KJ, QT, J9, and J8 all got there, but is he raising those hands on the turn? I think it's obvious that you pay him off here, but again, if you DON'T, the turn raise is the place to fold. No point in calling the turn and folding this river. Very little got there.

As for hand 2, since you have a disguised flush, I hate a donk. While obviously someone is likely to call you, it certainly gives worse hands an opportunity to fold and better hands an opportunity to raise.

So we check. If Jesse bets and btn folds or calls, we are check-raising. We beat AA (6 combos), AQ (8), QJ (6), AT(12), KT (9), and JJ (3). We lose to KK (3), KQ (6), QQ (1), QT (6), TT (3), and 55 (3) and would have to pay off a 3rd bet to those hands. That's 44 combos we beat and 22 we lose to, which is exactly the 66 percent we need for a x/r.

And if Jesse checks and btn bets, I just go ahead and raise. What does Jesse have that would x/overcall here?

No, because a lot of the hands that beat me are hands against which I have several outs: Against 98/K9/K8 I have eight outs (two aces, three 3s, and three of whatever card isn't in his two pair) and it would be a disaster to fold to those getting the price I am getting on the turn.

So yes I think Jesse has me beat on the turn but I have outs. When I fail to counterfeit two pair on the river (or make a set to counterfeit a smaller set), I should probably fold -- but then again what if we're chopping (he could potentially not be capping the other AA preflop) or he has decided to overplay AK?

I would go to showdown in hand one - like everyone has been saying you're prob crushed and I had that feeling especially otr - but I just don't think I can fold.

In hand 2 I'm used to playing smaller stakes where players freeze up otr so I'm used to donking in this spot but vs our friend (and other better players who know how to value bet otr) then I would go for the cr. I can see the merit in folding, more so from BU than from J8888 vs a rr - but I think I would have a hard time folding regardless. Interesting hands ...

Lol how is there even a question that DD missed the flush? I'd lay 20:1 on it.