sigh

4 pf + 1 otf = 5

3 pf + 2 otf = 5

I never did that simple math. For some reason I've always assumed that was losing a small bet -- and thus calling 3-bets w/AA and c/r flop is bad. It isn't.

Thank you.

Though:

3 pf + 1 otf + 4 ott = 8

is better than

3 pf + 2 otf + 2 ott = 7

If the opponent barrels the turn with high frequency (i.e. takes the line many good players do of v-betting A hi/any pair on the turn, then checking river) -- delaying to the turn would seem optimal. Particularly if people think calling down with A hi here is standard (so we can expect to be paid off a lot).

You seems to completely ignore the times when you make a big hand vs a strong hand, which should be somewhat often in somewhat narrow range spots (perhaps more so when we rase really early and get 3 bet).

often 3 pf + 2 otf + 6 ott >>>>> any line your going to get capping pre flop
or the all to common 3 pf + 6 otf....they fold turn

I agree and this very specific scenario is one of the only times I ever do it.

Unfortunately I play mostly live so I could never hope to get any math on that. Has anybody ever done analysis like that over a large sample of hands?

I'm not saying you and jdr0317 are wrong necessarily but I'm also not convinced that line would yield more over a million trials, because some of the time you both have a strong hand (or some of the time they check the turn).

How do they check the turn when we cr the flop and lead the turn

And yes, I've done the math on it, basically just a bunch of decision trees with various branches. My conclusions are obviously biased based upon what inferences I make, basically how often they raise the turn, gold A highs and etc. but once you set up the calcs it's pretty easy to run them with a few different ratios and see how it effects the results.

Not to mention when you decide to 4 bet pre, people never seem to account for what that does to our range when we dont 4 bet pre.

and this is another reason to why you don't want to wait for the turn to c/r....

One guy I had been playing OL in 8/16+ recently (he may recently have been put to pasture by trying to grind out shark tank 15 games) was 3 betting his BB 20% in a sample of like 75 hands (so really he could be as low as 11% but that's still a pretty significant amount to be 3 betting OOP in 5-6 handed games). Needless to say, he got pummelled in spots where he played passively because it was impossible for him to have anything.

Not exactly a 1:1 comparison, but illustrates the same point; that it sucks to take capped ranges against uncapped ranges OOP. So it's rather simple: don't cap your range before there's even a flop on the table.

Don't get me wrong, there's times when 4 betting pre is correct (like versus the idiot who 3 bets an UTG raise w/ hands like K9o or A2s), but against a reasonable 3 betting range, it's probably close to correct to just call your entire range (more correct than bifurcation, that's for sure).

He's currently sitting to my direct left.

Anybody know how to say "pencil dick ******" in Chinese?

https://translate.google.com/

try using that for curse words and slang and see how that works out for you!

Saw an awesome reddit post the other day. Some chic thought she got "f*** cancer" in Italian as a tattoo, translation provided by G Translate.. Her brother showed a picture to /r/Italy and they said it means "cock cancer". Nice tat!

mandarin or cantonese?

It's far more complex than that.

For starters, getting pummeled postflop often happens when you divide your range "horizontally," that is, you have 88+ ATs+ AJo+ and a 7-high flop comes and you either have an overpair or overcards and now someone with like 76 crush you if you do anything 100%. Even a 9-high flop is problematic because you can't have top pair outkicked so T9 can breathe easy.

As the example range suggests, raising from EP suffers the same problem. Why don't we limp our entire range? Not a trick question - for starters, we don't always get 3-bet, and also because we lose value from the top of our range.

So it's not simple, you're balancing the value of having a wider range postflop with the immediate value you're sacrificing preflop.

Let's say you're in the BB and someone raises, and it's folded to you. It makes a huge difference whether the raiser is EP (you're losing value from only a thin sliver of your continuing range and the Villain suffers from a horizontally-segregated range), or whether the raiser is OTB (you're now losing value for a large part of your continuing range and Villain is not horizontally segregated). It's a pretty easy case to say you should just call the former, a lot harder to make the case for the latter.

In particular, keep in mind the times where the aggressor behind you is extremely loose. Take the extreme example - he 3-bets a lot hands you would not open. You're now justified in 4-betting your entire opening range for value and you don't narrow your range at all. Worse yet, if these Villains have a wide re-reraising range (e.g., he opens BTN 80%, you 3-bet BB 40%, he 4-bets 40%, you're sacrificing not one bet but two bets preflop.

The most common scenario is that you open, get 3-bet IP, and the blinds fold. And basically, unless Villain is super wide, you're going to simply call the 3-bet. But there's a variety of other scenarios, e.g., big blind defense, you open LP and get 3-bet out of the SB, where the answer is not simple at all and you should think about what you're doing.

If you think it's close and you're going to play with Villain again, you can always opt to slice your range vertically rather than horizontally. For example, instead of 4-betting all KK or calling with all KK, call black KK and red KK but 4-bet all the mixed color KKs (breaks down 1/3-2/3). Now your range isn't (as) stratified. But to confuse your opponent, you need to play long enough for him to notice sometimes you re-raise KK and sometimes you don't.

Blah blah blah (been drinking). Once agai you completely ignore what 3 betting the BBQ vs button range does for your decapitated range when you don't 3 bet bb. There's other reasons as well, but I don't care enough to get into it.

Why should getting called down by AK bother you so much when you knew you don't bluff enough in this spot? You should be bothered more if he fold AK if you don't bluff enough. You don't get paid when you do this with your value hands if you don't get called by AK.

Ding ding. 👍

Or you haven't thought enough about it quantitatively.

You admit in another thread you cap 4-way. Why? Because at some point, even you admit that what you lose by not capping with strong hands (which grows with number of opponents as well as with width of their ranges) outweighs what you gain by deception (which decreases with number of opponents and width of ranges).

its pretty simple, heads up I expect him to c-bet at a high enough frequency to make up for not capping, 4+ handed I don't. If I was heads up vs a player that c-bet like 50% I would 3 bet my bb heads up

Him cbetting only makes up for a lost bet preflop if you check/raise and are ahead; which means you only get back the bet when (a) he doesn't suck out on you and (b) you check/raise. That is, on boards where you wait for the turn to raise, you've now given up 2 SB * your equity edge preflop & flop in for 1 BB * your equity edge on the turn. Are you sure the math works out?

Sometimes you 4 bet pf and are behind as well.

True. People might do it a lot more than i think, I just don't see what they muck because I usually show them the winner.

in before 100!

Must be the title.

I don't know about you guys but if I reraise the bbq I don't have a range, **** is real serious.

In at 100!

(or 99 replies, but whatever lol)