I still think there is some merit to turn 3 bet but if I did that it would be with plan to bet blank river also

Just to be clear I'm not saying 3b'ing the turn is bad

Winner

Another winner. I checked back out of confusion.

i know it is dumb but because imo my hand was worth at best 3 BB

i thought maybe he could had 2 pairs ( A9s unlikely but we never know A6s, even AK and we free roll like CL said) which we did not improve on the river to beat with only 1 pair.

only reason i would think our hand was worth 4 BB is if of course we improved on the river.

i would rather put the 3 bet on turn rather then the river because we had a nice redraw thats all.

Poker is so incredibly easy and some of you make it so incredibly hard. It's. Hacked to is ok the turn, we have a good hand so we bet. He raises we have a good hand and the nut draw so we can't fold... We don't have a a axing hand so we can't 3 bet. We call.... He checks to us on the then river we have a relatively strong hand so we bet.


That's really all there is to it, we don't need to go any GTO range ca tame assumptions that everyone ha basically going to do incorrectly anyways nor any other super complex math,

Autocorrect aside, yup.

Seriously, ZOMG_RIGGED as already explained at length how easy it is to exploit the dude who three bets a hand like AxKd on this turn for the intent of FSDR, and that's four betting more for value.

W/R/T getting four bets in when we River the nuts, firstly it's dumb to discuss one bet of implied odds as justification for a play, secondly if he has QJdd, then we get 4 bets in anyway when he bet/calls a river diamond. Thirdly, when we b3b turn and bet a non board pairing diamond River, you speak like villain is obligated to call with some random set of 9's if you do this ridiculous turn bet / 3 bet.

If we're three betting the turn, it's because we think we have the best hand, and we think we're going to get action on our three bet from enough worse hands.

But since everyone wants to talk about balance and GTO and stuff, then anyone in favor of FSDR should explain how it could be correct mathematically to three bet into a range capped at the second nuts and floored at whatever demarcation line villain draws for value, giving him 11.25:1 on a call, only to check behind against a now capped range (due to lack of a 4 bet) where said capped range will receive 13.25:1 on a call.

It's like the FSDR crowd just has too much ego to call a river bet and muck.

I swear I had a post typed up yesterday that said I'd call the turn and bet the river but I guess I never clicked the post button. Shrug.

Pretty much anyone that does this is bad. Yes it's common. People play bad.

Not just talking about this hand but people have gotten weird with when a fsdr is used lately. Back when I was a kid we were taught the fsdr was used when:

1) you have a hand with showdown value but where your raise has a chance to make a better hand or a hand with hidden outs fold
2) you can safely fold to a three bet
3) if your raised is called and you're behind you have outs

.

That's why in point two I used the words "safely fold"

If villain accidentally exposes his hand on the turn and its a set and then another player not in the hand says hell bet you $40 you can't raise the turn then I think raise turn and check back river is a pretty good line. Absent any of those conditions its probably not.

Or if you go ahead and 3 bet the turn and then villain says I check, but I have a flush (and he usually tells the truth) then you can also check back river.

This reminds me of a hand I once played where I capped the turn on 842-2 with AA 3 way, one player with A8 folded and the other dude says on the river "I have a full house, I check" as I was fully prepared to value own myself (pardon me for assuming someone would be competent enough to raise at some point when they flop a set)

Disagree.

LHE is played with a 4 or 5 bet cap, and if you have a monster you will want to use this to your advantage. If I have middle set on AT9tt I'm 3betting IP, trying to induce a 4 bet or go for a b/3b on the turn. Having an empty 3b range here misses out on value -- yet this appears to be the default play around 2+2.

If I have monsters when I 3bet, then I also need to add big draws. Some draws will free card. If I have draws that free card, i need to add showdown hands that prefer to free card show down, saving half a bet.

so you're saying it's not bad to freecard with a draw with no sd value? that's bad. "saving" a half bet (which i still disagree with) while completely ****ing up you're whole range is bad on every level.

What hands would you flat a flop cr with then?

I think checking riv misses too much value. I'd b/f and expect to see A+Qd, or Td when called, and sometimes get c/red by the AJ, but I'd usually expect to see him lead riv with AJ or sets or anything that beats us.

With us holding the Kd I don't think we see any c/r bluffing on this river. And I just don't expect to get c/red very often.

Yes, it's good if you can save half a bet when you have a draw.
How do I f up my 'whole range' 'on every level'?

@Ghost - I'm calling the 2b most of the time, but think its an improvement to carve out a b/3b range that has monsters, draws, and some bluff-catchers.

what are you betting river with?