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05-13-2016 , 08:24 PM

#26

OnTheRail15

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 4,339

If you don't have the equity to bet the river you might as well start 3betting any nfd in this spot (clearly terrible)

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05-14-2016 , 01:11 AM

#27

steveistheman84

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,438

hypothetically if both villains are good, how do people feel about c/'ing back flop and raising turn when:
a) bb bets and utg calls or raises
b) bb checks and utg bets
and calling turn/raising river when bb bets and utg folds?

but maybe a good player wouldn't have a bb cold call range in a such a narrow range situation though.

Last edited by steveistheman84; 05-14-2016 at 01:23 AM.

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05-14-2016 , 01:23 AM

#28

ZOMG_RIGGED!

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 17,504

Makes me feel like throwing up in my mouth. Against two good players the bb is likely no have 4 betting range

Last edited by ZOMG_RIGGED!; 05-14-2016 at 01:28 AM.

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05-14-2016 , 01:58 AM

#29

phunkphish

veteran

Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 2,902

Quote:

Originally Posted by steveistheman84

hypothetically if both villains are good, how do people feel about c/'ing back flop and raising turn...

I'm crazy and like working on having this in my repertoire. AKd is generally *too* strong for this play. It's strong enough to b/3b on the flop, so checking back is giving up a lot of value. Do this play with weaker kicker, or even weaker diamonded kicker.

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05-14-2016 , 02:57 AM

#30

steveistheman84

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,438

i'm just talking about axx flops in general.

zomb: you're saying bb shouldn't have 4betting range?

i know that in situations where hj+ opens and there's a 3bet, it's in fashion to just flat in bb, but don't really see the benefit in narrow spots. can you explain? or give me an idea of what your continuing range would be in bb?

or maybe it's because 4betting gives away your post flop betting line of pretty much always betting 3 times too rio'y?

Last edited by steveistheman84; 05-14-2016 at 03:07 AM.

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05-14-2016 , 03:23 AM

#31

ZOMG_RIGGED!

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 17,504

Quote:

Originally Posted by steveistheman84

zomb: you're saying bb shouldn't have 4betting range?

I'm making no statement as to whether or not they should. I'm saying lots don't so basing your assumptions on the bb having a capped range is faulty

Quote:

i know that in situations where hj+ opens and there's a 3bet, it's in fashion to just flat in bb, but don't really see the benefit in narrow spots. can you explain? or give me an idea of what your continuing range would be in bb?

Why do you think it's correct in wide range situations but not narrow hand ranges against good hand readers? A 4b is pf here is an extremely narrow range and you're going to have many more hands you'd rather call with than 4b. You're also able to possibly eek out a little extra info based on if original raiser 4bets.

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05-14-2016 , 03:27 AM

#32

steveistheman84

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,438

yeah, i think i see what you're saying. off the top of my head i can figure tt+, and ak. and aa and kk have a lot of the non-pair hands blocked so gives villains more underpairs and can have easy c/r opportunities, whereas tt-qq are going to be overplaying and put into some nasty b/f? spots later on. hopefully i'm on the right track with that.

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05-14-2016 , 03:34 AM

#33

ZOMG_RIGGED!

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 17,504

Quote:

or give me an idea of what your continuing range would be in bb

My range here is immaterial, what's your range and what are doing with it? Are you 4betting or folding?

Or are you 4b'ing something like QQ+, AK? If your 4 betting your biggest hands then what are you doing with whatever the rest of range is? What are you doing with 99? Ajs? KQs?

Because that's a pretty easy range to play against when you're oop against two good players

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05-14-2016 , 03:40 AM

#34

ZOMG_RIGGED!

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 17,504

dont get hung up on the specifics, I'm just throwing random hands here for the sake of discussion.

Say I'm the hypothetical good player in mp. If I've seen you 4b JJ and AK is this spot before, when you just call 3 I just immediately have your ranged pegged to a pretty good but not great hand. It means I can bet and raise you much thinner.

You have a capped range, I don't. I'm in position, you're in front of two players. I have your range pinned pretty accurately. UTG could have the same train of thought as me. All this things add up to trouble.

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05-14-2016 , 03:54 AM

#35

steveistheman84

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,438

ak+, 88+. i've been cold calling, but only because i most of my play is shorthanded and that's my default. the rare time it comes up in fr i'm confused, so i just go with that.

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05-14-2016 , 03:58 AM

#36

ZOMG_RIGGED!

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 17,504

4 betting 88 from the bb is pretty bad when a good player opens utg and gets 3 bet by an other good player in MP. Feels closer to a fold than a 4b, and both are inferior to calling

So are you folding all your KQs, QJs, AJs, etc or calling?

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05-14-2016 , 04:07 AM

#37

steveistheman84

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,438

no, just been folding. i kind of suck at full ring. never really put together default ranges for anything past 6max for the most part so i just play really nitty in these spots.

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05-14-2016 , 04:18 AM

#38

ZOMG_RIGGED!

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 17,504

So you're 4betting 88 and folding AQs? That's bad. You've past nitty

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05-14-2016 , 04:24 AM

#39

steveistheman84

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,438

no, i've been flatting everything, and yeah i'm calling with aqs, but wouldn't know if it's right, and because i usually end up on the slightly looser side of all of my ranges cuz fr's boring.

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05-14-2016 , 04:26 AM

#40

ZOMG_RIGGED!

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 17,504

Gotcha. You're still folding way too many hands. I don't know what level you play but even at 10-20 this is going to get noticed quickly and make your blind a lame gazelle

Below that probably not but that means your opponents are bad and you should be trying to more hands against them not less

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05-15-2016 , 03:20 AM

#41

Montrealcorp

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 13,374

Sorry but i have a difficult grasp still for rejecting a 3bet turn/chekc river behind.

If the hand would of went c/r flop by UTG and BB fold, HU on turn
Any problem for the raise turn when UTG bet and check behind river ?
Is the c/r on turn the only reason 3betting the turn and checking behind is bad ?
i mean i see so much 3bet flop IP when i c/r flop and they check behind turn for a cheap SD on river, i thought it could be done here on turn in the OP hand...
Seems not .

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05-15-2016 , 03:36 AM

#42

ZOMG_RIGGED!

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 17,504

for the love of god why would you want to do this?

If you're raising the turn it should be because you think you're ahead of his range. In which case unless the river changes this you should still be betting.

If you don't think you're ahead of his range why do you want to raise in a spot where you can easily get 4b just because you have a draw?

It's not a "cheaper". It costs either the exact same or more

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05-15-2016 , 07:00 AM

#43

Montrealcorp

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 13,374

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZOMG_RIGGED!

for the love of god why would you want to do this?

If you're raising the turn it should be because you think you're ahead of his range. In which case unless the river changes this you should still be betting.

If you don't think you're ahead of his range why do you want to raise in a spot where you can easily get 4b just because you have a draw?

It's not a "cheaper". It costs either the exact same or more

simply put it, no one as answerd this...

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazyLond

A couple other considerations I thought about for turn:

1. If he has AK also, I have equity edge with my freeroll and would benefit from 3 betting
2. If I am behind, he often won't punish me for 3 betting. 99 seems very unlikely to 4 bet and if he's passive, he might not even 4 bet with non nut flushes. And he can't have the nut flush.

1 last thing, he does not cost the same thing if we improve on the river, we can 1 more bet or raise on the river when we hit our draw.
seriously, it may seem i am stubborn but it is probably a big leak here that i have if so...

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05-15-2016 , 07:24 AM

#44

ZOMG_RIGGED!

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 17,504

As a tangent how many players do you think check 99 on the turn and risk it checking through on a 3 diamond board?

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05-15-2016 , 07:33 AM

#45

Montrealcorp

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 13,374

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZOMG_RIGGED!

As a tangent how many players do you think check 99 on the turn and risk it checking through on a 3 diamond board?

none, but that the point of CL. 99 probably not 4 betting the turn right ?

i just thought that 3 betting those kind of hands make us more difficult to play against because it is a very slim range we 3 bet with which is not strong hands but got decent equity vs very strong range and can out draw good 2 pair hand easily .
If someone get too loose vs us and decide to cap wider because he might think we can 3bet a lot of flush draw on turn , we gain with our big value range.

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05-15-2016 , 07:52 AM

#46

ZOMG_RIGGED!

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 17,504

Eh, I'm going to let someone else take over if they want. I clearly think he has a different range than you guys do, and I'm going to kick you in the teeth with a 4bet here with almost all my value range.

Out of curiosity what kind of small flushs do guys expect him to have here? Cause most of em are going to contain two cards between ten and queen, so CL will have exactly one combo of nut flushes. At best

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05-15-2016 , 08:00 AM

#47

Montrealcorp

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 13,374

well personally i though utg would have 2 pair at best or weak flush draw like jts,t9s. since a set of 99 should of c/r flop imo.

so i thought all those hands could not 4 bet the turn ...so i figure mind as well get the 3rd bet in now on the turn and gain 1 more bet on the river if i improve.

seems i was way off in my thought process...

and yes KQd is in my range by default.

ps: thx for the help zomg anyway

always appreciated

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05-15-2016 , 08:08 AM

#48

ZOMG_RIGGED!

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 17,504

If that's the range you give him why are you wanting to chck the river by default?

Also no one has mentioned he could have easily spiked a set of 6's

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05-15-2016 , 08:12 AM

#49

Montrealcorp

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 13,374

well i would i check because i did not improved on river, but if we are not 3betting the turn and he check on the river, yes i agree easiest bet for value on the the river when he check.

DD thought our hand is not worth 3 BB but i think it is.
But online 2/4$ and below and live 40+ is probably not the same ballpark

ps: when i said weak flush draw, i meant weak made flush, sorry...

Last edited by Montrealcorp; 05-15-2016 at 08:22 AM.

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05-15-2016 , 08:22 AM

#50

ZOMG_RIGGED!

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 17,504

Quote:

Originally Posted by Montrealcorp

well i would i check because i did not improved on river, but if we are not 3betting the turn and he check on the river, yes i agree easiest bet for value on the the river when he check.

If you don't think he can have 99 then what hands are you afraid that beat you besides baby flushes? If baby flushes are the only thing that still beat why are you checking the river?

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