Live 20, fishes limp the gun and the gun+1, fish limps the HJ, Jesse overlimps the CO, blinds call, 6 ways.

J54r

4 checks to HJ who bets. How does Jesse proceed with various holdings?

1. QTo
2. A5s
3. A4s
4. A3,A2s
5. 76s
6. 87s
7. 66
8. 65s

Feel free to answer as few or many as you like.

F, R, R, C or R, C, F if no BDFD, R, C or R

He raises them preflop.

Yeah, I don't think I'd raise QT or 66 that often in this spot PF, but all the other hands are good raising hands. Especially if you show them down and get people to think you're insane and thus never give you credit for a premium hand when you cold 4-bet or whatever.

this

Id raise most preflop

You guys really raise A3s after 3 limpers? Like OK 87s and such fine, but A3?

Why not! Do you really think you're in bad shape against their ranges?

Jesse -- for the cost of one extra SB you can a) take over the button and ensure position throughout the hand; b) get initiative; c) get a weak SB to fold A6o and the like; and d) build a pot for a great volume hand like a suited ace.

You don't have to c-bet every flop but like QT4 with one of your suit gives you a great chance to check back and catch a 2 or 5 or a flush draw or both (or an ace). And if someone behind you 3-bets then you have defined their hand a little better as well.

What's your reason against raising? (Note: I'm not saying limping is terrible, and I don't raise these 100% of the time, but raising has a lot of merit and you should be more liberal when you're in position).

I know that 2. is a raise.

you are getting lost in the pokers dude.

Huh. As usual I'm learning not what I intended to. You know, I used to raise these hands and I guess I sorta started nitting it up slowly but surely over the last year or so. Thanks guys.

i'd overlimp QTo and raise the others

You know come to think of it I may still raise some of those hands. I happened to hold 66 on the hand in question (which I did limp...i think after 3 limpers I'd probably want at least 77 or 88 to raise) and got to thinking about my range in that spot on the flop and just threw some hands out there....but I guess in actuality I may have a pretty narrow (and strong) range when I raise there.

Shrug honestly I overlimp a lot of these hands in bigger games but I know plenty of people who pound the 20 and 40 games and their strategy is to bet and raise whenever its their turn, and play decent preflop, it works really well against bad players.

I probably fold A THREE, TOO WEAK¿

Wait, I'm confused how these two statements are related to one another: 1. I overlimp these in bigger games (where are these games btw!?) and 2. But the strategy of raising them preflop is equivilant to betting and raising every time and playing decently preflop?

I think this would be an example of the opposite: perhaps giving up a bit preflop (although really probably not) but gaining an edge from our postflop play and hand reading skills in big pot situations.

FWIW I can't think of many lineups where the combination of our opponent's preflop ranges and postflop skill would make limping better than raising in most (I think all but I can see limping QTo I suppose) these situation.

And of course it works against bad players, but they all limped to us so they're probably bad.

I think DD might have typo'ed postflop into preflop but I'm not sure.

It's a spot where my preflop range can really narrow my range postflop, but nobody on earth will be like "he didn't raise preflop he can't have 76s!" so it doesn't matter.

When discussing live 20/40 full ring games it's important to know how to play against tough short-handed 300/600 opponents.

Right because tough short-handed 300/600 opponents often go limp limp limp and it's on you in the cutoff. I'm writing to you from my mansion in the hamptons btw.

No I didn't typo. I'll try again, I am pretty sure OTR will agree with me if I just say it right :P

A lot of people I know do well in live 20 and live 40 games, they often are of the "bet when checked to" variety, they make thin value bets, they triple barrel, they semibluff, they basically just bet a lot. Since they are playing decent preflop they start with fairly good cards, so its not like they are completely out of control spewing. I am sure these people would raise these hands preflop and I am sure they make good money in these games, thus my anecdotal evidence is that raising these preflop is good strategy.

I was also saying there is a time to overlimp most of these hands and that is when your opponents are more discerning preflop but not necessarily good / aggro enough to just open raise or fold. Commerce 100/200 and online mid stakes full ring both play this way I feel.

I'll take "Buying the Button" for $40 Alex.

FWIW, with four+ limpers and loose blinds, I think you can make an argument for raising all pairs here strictly for the implied set value and a four card flop.

I overlimp 70+% of possible holdings here, raising only KK+

Seems to me like 22-66 benefit less from a 4 card flop than our opponents' hands.

Okay two things:

1. On one hand I agree with you that there are game conditions where some of these hands should be limped and that these game conditions are much more likely to occur at higher stakes than at mid (or low) stakes.

2. On the other hand, if I sat down in a random 100/200 game and saw three people limp to me, I'd raise all of these hands because it's very likely that my opponents are both not very good and playing marginal hands preflop. I guess the point I'm trying to make is the thing that separates people who beat up 20 and 40 games from people who beat up higher stakes live games and midstakes online game has nothing to do with this situation at all.

I think what you're pointing toward is the fact that the biggest winners at the 40 and 20 games by and large have figured out how to play good aggressive exploitative poker in a specific way whereas higher stakes winners have figured out both how to do that and how to ramp up/down that aggression/exploitativeness depending on opponent and game conditions.