Mid stakes kill game, 6 handed.

Relevant reads. V1 and V2 are giving away money. V3 is a good, thinking LAG.

Kill acts last preflop with no action in front. 5 bet cap.

V3 posts the kill on his button.

V1 and V2 limp in MP. I raise SB w. A8hh. V1 and V2 call, V3 3!, all call.

Flop:
Th 6h 2h

I bet, V1/V2 call, V3 raise, I 3!, V1/V2 call, V3 4!, all call.

Turn:
Qs (Th 6h 2h)

I bet....

Like it so far or no?

Why wouldn't we? Maybe I flat the flop 3 bet from V3 and let V1 and V2 stay in there with obvious worse because they probably don't fold to one more bet, but might to two possibly. But every ones still in there, so it worked out I supposed.

put the lid on it on the flop.

Why didn't you cap the flop?

i think (correct me if i'm wrong op), the 5b cap is only for preflop when there is a kill posted. then it reverts to bet+3 raises (4b cap) on flop/turn/riv.

on the flop, since it's 4 people, i think it's best to 3b since it's a big pot and even a J or Q may call.

same on the turn, b/3b if you have the opportunity

5 bet cap every street.

Why would you not cap it 4 way with the nuts but then still donk the turn?

Pretty sure I'm going to end up hating V3's 4 bet unless he flopped the K high flush

Re: not capping flop:
What do you think of villians range here?

Re: why donk turn?
QX (X >= T) with a heart is prolly a reasonable part of my range and would donk here sometimes, no?

Never ever ever stop raising, unless the dealer says you can't anymore.

Wow, I think that's way wrong (for the small streets).

Adding to why not cap flop...what does capping flop do to the two tagalongs if they make it to the turn against two people showing a ton of aggression?

Firstly, everyone thinks everyone just makes expert slowplay with the nuts, so by jamming, OP's hand range actually looks weaker (smaller flushes, AdTx, bottom set, etc). Secondly, people who tag-along on monotone boards like this find excuses to not raise once they get there, under the logic of "the pot is too big to fold, but I'm not sure if I'm live". Example: I had someone just call me on J94-J-Q with T8 after I had b3b a massive field OTF and led turn (and of course I had KJ because I run so bad live). Just let them call bets drawing practically dead; it's one of the two most awesome things that can happen to you in a hand (the other being people who fold live hands at too cheap of a price). Why would we not want to make sure the K gets to call all sorts of bets?

Firstly, everyone thinks everyone just makes expert slowplay with the nuts, so by jamming, OP's hand range actually looks weaker (smaller flushes, AdTx, bottom set, etc). Secondly, people who tag-along on monotone boards like this find excuses to not raise once they get there, under the logic of "the pot is too big to fold, but I'm not sure if I'm live". Example: I had someone just call me on J94-J-Q with T8 after I had b3b a massive field OTF and led turn (and of course I had KJ because I run so bad live). Just let them call bets drawing practically dead; it's one of the two most awesome things that can happen to you in a hand (the other being people who fold live hands at too cheap of a price). Why would we not want to make sure the K gets to call all sorts of bets?

1. Which villain's? We have three. Not that it matters because we have the nuts against three opponents who want to put money in so oblige them

2. Um no. Yourr trying to rep a Q here? Why? What hand bet/3b the flop here with a naked Q? AhQ? Against what range is it possibly good to donk AQ against a villain who r/4b the flop?

Agree with this, guess we disagree on
How to get the most money on the pot. My thinking was to try to get as many bets in on the turn, which I think not capping the flop helps me do.

Thats fair, at game time I thought I could plausibly get V3 to believe Q helped my hand, so I bet thinking it likely that V1/V2 would call 1 (and another if V3 raises), but not 2 cold if I c/r V3.

A great way to get the most bets possible in OTT is to bet after 5 betting flop and get raised by a cooler hand OTB.

Agree, so I ask again what we think about V3's range after he caps flop? IMO, given action, overpairs and sets, overpair >> set. I think he likely just calls overpair multiway if I cap flop and lead turn.

Why? do think they dont already know you have a big hand? The easiest way to tie people to a pot is to make the pot really big. Make them put the bets early when they still have hope, not wait until they later and hope they're still interested.

I'm also 100% you donked the flop for the wrongs reasons now based on your posts

I donked the flop so I could raise and build a big pot and because its death if it gets checked through. Wrong reasons?

And the pot already has 14 BB assuming all call V3 4! On flop. You really think the extra 2 BB we get in by capping somehow suddenly prices anybody in on the turn? IMO, I get more utility out of slowing down here to get more bets in on big streets.

And re: think they don't already know I have a big hand.

Meh, not really. Big hand/big draw I'd guess.

wrong reasons

two people are going to war so at least one of you has a big hand. They dont care because they're on a draw and will keep putting money in. So just keep putting money in

That's helpful. Right reasons?

Edit to add, wanting to raise/build pot w. Two limpers stuck in.

out of curiosity what stake is this?

There are some serious disconnects in your thought process. You say you donked so you could b/3b and build a pot, but dont want to cap.

The idea that after you b/3b the flop and then donk the Q turn that people are some how going to put you on a Q

donking the flop because youre scared it will check through

Thinking that two people showing aggression on the flop will scare people away more than the same people showing aggression on the turn

all of these are pretty serious flaws

> out of curiosity what stake is this?

Its a big game.

> There are some serious disconnects in your thought process.

Perhaps

> You say you donked so you could b/3b and build a pot, but dont want to cap.

Correct. I don't think cap is wrong, but I do think not capping all the time gives me more opportunities to get more bets in on the big streets.

> The idea that after you b/3b the flop and then donk the Q turn that people are some how going to put you on a Q

Agree this was likely flawed thinking.

> donking the flop because youre scared it will check through

See my edit of my last comment. I think the relative position of the Limpers is important in all postflop action in this hand. "Scared it will check through/scared it checks to pf aggressor and then both callers are faced w. Taking 2 cold to stay in".

> Thinking that two people showing aggression on the flop will scare people away more than the same people showing aggression on the turn

I dont/didnt think this. See above, basically all my actions were dictated by trying to get the most bets in while keeping everybody in the hand. What we seem to disagree on (other than the fact that you think I'm horrible and I think I'm decent), is that I think I get more total big bets in by not showing maximum aggression on small street.

Consider:

If I cap flop and lead turn/river (average case) V3 calls over pairs and raises sets+. I estimate he's set+ 40ish%:

Flop: (16 BB)

Turn: I bet, V1 call, V2 call, 60% of time V3 calls, 40% of time V3 raises. When he raises, I 3!. Let's guess 1 limper calls 2 cold and V3 calls =

16 + 3 + .6 + (.4*3 + .4*2*2) = 22.4

I bet river, all call =

22.4 + 3 = 25.4 BB

Vs.

When I don't cap flop, and donk Q turn, I think V3 raises his entire range a ton of the time, let's say 80%:

I flat 4! Flop, all call.
Flop(14 BB)

Turn:
I bet, V1 calls, V2 calls, 20% of time V3 calls, 80% of time V3 raises. When he raises I 3!. As above, 1 limper takes 2 and V3 just calls =

14 + 3 + .2 + (.8*3 + .8*2*2) = 22.8

I bet river, all call =

22.8 + 3 = 25.8 BB

Heh, doing the math makes it much closer than I thought, though I do think I have more potential upside as played.



> all of these are pretty serious flaws

Could be, somebody's gotta keep the games good for you guys.

Anyhow, as played...

I bet/3! Turn, all call

River bricks off. 2 callers and I scoop 29 BB pot

Maybe I lost 2 BB by not capping flop, but I feel like action goes differently on turn if I cap flop and I make more with the line I took. Thought it was an interesting spot anyhow.