Two spots. 10-20 game. Early in my session.

#1. Nine handed. I open raise 9 9 in MP. Everyone folds except SB, who calls.

K Q 7
Check bet call.
Turn J
Check bet call.
River 5
Check check

#2. Eight handed. Two folds. Limper limps. I am next to act with K J. I raise. All fold except BB calls and Limper calls.

Q J 8
Check check bet, both call.
Turn 8
Check check bet, fold, call.
River 5
Check check

Should I be betting these rivers? Any other thoughts about my play? Thx.

Hand 1 I don't think is close and is a check. Thinking anything folds is super optimistic imo.

Hand 2 I definitely bet river. What are we afraid of? Shouldn't be too many qx hands that don't put in more action on flop or turn.

Hand one I'd just give up on that horrible turn card. As played check back and hope he has a 7 or busted flush draw.

Hand two I think thin value bet is ok as you can be called by smaller jacks and smaller pocket pairs. Sometimes you value own yourself but that's just part of the fun in LHE.

I like the turn bet with 99 though.

I think a showdown bet is fine against a player who cold calls the small blind here. River bet would be lighting money on fire, so good check.

Second hand, I think you bet. Yes sometimes you get called by AJ or a weakly played Q, but there's also weak Jacks that can call here.

Standard line: I check back river hand 1 and bet hand 2

vs some villains I would check the turn in hand 1 but vs most I'm betting the turn for thin value.

vs some other villains i would value bet the river in hand 1. showdown monkeys who never believe me basically.

i don't see what good can come from betting the turn in hand 1 (even against a loose passive). hand 2 is a standard value bet on river.

Thin value, protection bet, that prevents us from having to fold to river bets.

Tough without reads, but lets try.

Hand 1.
Giving him a reasonable defending range, I check back flop. What is your plan on this board? Bet twice and check back river? Bet once, check turn, decide river? Bet and hate life if you get raised? His Axs and lower pocket pairs are drawing slim. His Qx and Kx destroy us. We barely have an equity edge vs AT/AJ/TJ. Unless he has a 7, this is a WA/WB spot. I'd check twice and vbet river on good runouts. 2nd best line is check, bet, check. No reason to auto-cbet this unless you have a good plan to follow it up. In fact, this hand is EASIER to play if we check flop.

Another advantage of checking flop: exploitatively folding turn if villain leads. Most passive players will never bluff in this spot, allowing you to safely fold.

Hand 2.
Against most, this is an easy vbet. If limper had a Q, he'd usually raise flop. If limper had an 8, he'd usually raise turns.

Well, he can call with a worse hand. That's good, right?

Hand 1) I think The turn bet is not good. This board smacks SB range, there are not a ton of flush draws we can get value from, especially given we hold the 9d. I don't think there is enough value to be had by betting to compensate for the times we get CRd and have to fold a potential 6 outer when behind.

Hand 2) easy river bet, especially since our kicker still plays.

I disagree. Only when we plan to "exploitatively" fold the turn does this make the hand easier to play. If we are not going to do that, it seems like villain can profitably bet the turn 100% of the time (often bet-folding) and we are going to get owned by that unless we are checking back more strong hands than we would really like to on what is a rather favorable board for an MP raising range.

Against a passive, unthinking opponent checking might be a fine exploitative play, but I do not think that checking the flop is standard or makes the hand easier to play against the full gamut of players.

Never this ^

What is your plan after you cbet? If you cbet and get x'red, life sucks. If you cbet and barrel turn, you're value-owning yourself a lot of the time. If you cbet and check back turn, you're in the same position where villain can profitably bet river 100% and you get owned unless you check back strong hands OTT. No matter what it's a tough hand to play.

If you check back flop, you leave villain range wider, and your hand (99) will be stronger than villain's entire range, so you don't entirely hate calling down. I would argue you gain more value from his A-rag hands and smaller pocket pairs by checking than you would by cbetting. If you cbet, *get called*, check back turn, then villain's range is now stronger since it doesn't include his A-rag hands or possibly smaller PPs. Now you do hate having to call down a river bet.


On balance: yes, check back some strong hands OTF. Villain sees you do this once, he will remember it. You will have an image that you don't cbet 100% and sometimes check TP. I'd argue this is great for your image, and will prevent him from auto-firing turns when you check back the weaker part of your range.

This might be a fine example of the type of hand we are betting on the flop and turn (with the intention of folding to a x/r) and checking back on the river, which appears to be exactly what Hero did.

Such a plan matches the strength of our hand to the amount of action we want to put in with it. Unless there is a good reason to think that this makes our play unbalanced, I see no reason to deviate.

You think a bet on the turn is for value? I would disagree unless SB is a huge fish.

Assigning a reasonable PF SB cold-calling range and peeling the flop with A hi+ or any draw, our equity is over 50% on the turn...

Very few of the hands that are ahead of us fold the turn to our bet. We are drawing thin against these hands and so the bet is very expensive. Even if you are putting them on a range where we're ahead of 50 percent of it, a lot of this range will fold and while that gains us a little protection it isn't a lot.

I don't expect that whole part of their range that's behind us to bluff river. If it does I can probably call river with 99 but as is, I think I can have some stronger hands in my check back range to pick off river bluffs. Or if it's live game maybe I can get a read.

@CrazyLond - Checking back the turn is reasonable, although ultimately I think that betting sets up an easier decision than having to face river bets that will inevitably be a mix of strong hands, thin value bets, and bluffs. I mean, I hear ya on checking back basically just planning on folding to a river bet, but this seems like it gives up way too much given the strength of our hand.

Maybe I severely undervalue the types of hands that SBs cold call with (maybe because I nearly never do it first-in after the raise), but a plan that involves putting in one small bet and then folding to any further action (in position to boot!) strikes me as unreasonably weak.

Well said, I agree. I think that this disagreement in the thread shows that the decision on the turn is indeed pretty close.

I think it's a mistake to assume people will play perfectly to our turn bet. Plenty of people will continue with hands we beat (bottom pair, A hi, draws etc).

I don't think they'll play perfectly but I think they will call with a higher percentage of the hands that are ahead of us than the ones we're beating. Also when we're behind we're drawing much slimmer than they are when we're ahead.
Got some food poisoning today so it's possible my thoughts may be incoherent. It's quite a shame as I was going to play tonight since wife is working.

Agreed, games would have been different had it been a case of easy reads

Agreed on hand 2 riv vbet.

Hand one: IDK, maybe California games are crazy looser than where you're from, but a bet here accomplishes many things in my games:
-gets a call from 22-88
-folds out Ax, Jxs, Txs-- three+ out hands.
- if they do have a weak K or Q that they'll only check call with, get you to the river for only $20 (this one is dubious, Obv)

I dig the way you think about the game but you're giving too much credit here to 95% of 15 and 20 opponents. They're loose, they suck, and they are not defending (even SB) with what you or I would call a "reasonable range against your MP open, speaking in a Bayesian sense.

Now, I am going to listen to Remain in Light Halloween '98. Cheers.