On the button 9 handed in a very beatable live 30-60 game. All fold until the player to my right opens with a raise. I three bet with AQ Big blind calls as does the opener.

Flop: 8 7 4
Both players check to me. I bet, both call.

Turn: 2
BB bets out, player to my right raises. I smooth call. BB calls.

River: 3
Both players check, I bet, both fold.

Obviously the river club was not a part of my plan. I was hoping to delay my raise for the river and hoping to get an extra call from the BB...was my play totally horrible or just slightly smelly?

You can't four bet a K-hi flush if you don't raise the turn.

welcome to the forums

you misplayed your hand, as you already suspect

the good news is you can improve your play in future

you're still raising the river regardless, in which case the 1st player is going to fold, so delaying doesn't get you any extra bets anyway. raise turn.

On the bright side, you didn't fold.

Sorry didn't see it went bet/raise.

An even more compelling reason to raise right now. It's pretty hard to rep anything but the nuts when you take two to the face, then bet that river. You like lines that not only maximize immediate value, but allow you to rep other hands on later streets (I think any flush would have a hard time folding this river if you jammed turn).

A raise still leaves the chance of airball, but a big call is hugely defining of a hand.

I get made fun of sometimes because I point out linguistic issues in poker. For instance, calling middle position "the lowjack" encourages overly loose play, because it makes it sound like late position.

Well similarly, I suspect the term "smooth call" probably contributes to the amount of improper slowplay out there. If we called it "donk call" maybe people wouldn't do it so much.

There's nothing "smooth" about not betting/raising a monster hand in a multiway pot. Every time you do this, you give up the opportunity to force your opponents to put additional money into the pot with weaker hands. You are "smoothly allowing your opponents to keep their chips", I guess.

Start with this presumption-- in any multiway pot, if you are likely to be ahead bet or raise. I'm not going to say you should never deviate from this-- at 30/60 there begin to be some situations against good players where you might do so. But if you deviate, it should be based on a very precise analysis that takes into account your opponents' ranges and their skills at handreading. And it should be rare-- a deviation-- not your standard play.

This is how every mid limit fish plays the nuts. Don't be like them.

Agree w/ others, you misplayed the turn. You have to re-raise the turn.

With a raise on turn, one of the two players may even call your river bet thinking that you were jamming with a set (of fours) post-flop w/ a 4 of clubs in your hand. So a K/J/10/9/6/5 of clubs may make a poor call on river.

A poor call on the river? I think you'd be insane not to call with the K,J,10 of clubs at least. I can only assume neither player, especially the player to my right, had any of that.

And thanks for the feedback everyone...apart from that "fish do that" or "that was misplayed" curtness. Not especially helpful.

Just a question for people to think about: how many hands apart from sets or two pairs could possibly be betting and raising that turn? Bluffs, right? How do you think things would have played out had the river not four-flushed? Looking back I think it probably was a poor play just because the 4th club can hit and raising the turn can't be wrong. But let's assume I reraised the turn. Considering the check-fold on the river, that BB probably isn't calling two bets (which was the first thing that popped into my head as I played the hand...I just wanted action from him). The player to my right probably is calling my raise. Now the pot is exactly the same size. I guess I'm SLIGHTLY more likely to get a call out of him on the river since my bet could look more like a bluff against a single player. This was my thought process for why I don't think it was the worst play in the world...but not great either. Just wanted to see if someone could convince me either way.

TTx, JJx, QQx, KK, AA.

dammit I always suspected I was a midlimit fish lol

QQx would be difficult because I have the Q . I know it is hindsight but we can also be pretty sure they didn't have any high clubs due to the river check folds. AA or KK from the middle player are possible, agreed.

65 is also possible for either opponent--say, have you heard that people like to slowplay the nuts?--and depending on the aggression level of the CO (both pre and on the turn), I can also imagine them having different permutations of 96, 86, 76, 64, 75, 54, 53, A5. Several of those hands might include the 6 or 5, depending on how loose we think they call the river.

FWIW I won't be one of those making fun of you. I think this sort of observation is cool and matters.

Just out of curiosity, do you think it matters whether we call our opponent a fish or a donk or a weak recreational player? (Unsurprisingly, since it's a loaded question, I do think it matters.)

"Fish" and "donk" obviously exist in the poker lexicon, so obviously those words are going to come up in conversation.

In terms of how a GOOD player should think about bad players, I think descriptive beats insulting every time, though. Even better than "weak recreational player" is something like "calling station", "loose passive", "maniac". And even better than that is something less pithy but even more descriptive: "calling station, always slowplays the nuts, pays off the river too much, rarely bluffs". Or "scared money, tight passive, never bluffs, makes hero folds". Or "reasonably TAGgish when sober, gets too loose and too aggressive when she's drunk or on tilt".

Obviously you know that these are bad players, but the more you can think about HOW they are bad, the better. (On the other hand, since you don't necessarily want to share detailed reads with other players, you may just say "Joe the fish left 30 minutes ago". )

For the record, I'm fine with referring to it as a donk call. I just threw in the term "smooth" to refer to the fact that I was calling a raise, not a bet.

Each decision has its gains and drawbacks.

You can gain by your line of play if BB has small flush or possibly 65 and thinks mid player has a pair and a flush draw.

You lose by smooth calling when mid player has a set of 7's or 8's. You want to charge him to draw for a full house.

If he indeed had one of those hands, I can understand him folding when the fourth club comes.

And as stated by other posters, you really want to punish smaller flushes than you who are drawing dead.

There is also a small chance someone has 6c5c or Tc9c and is drawing to the straight flush.

They won't go anywhere (even if they should) and you want to charge them to draw as well.

A rec player can be a fish or donk but a fish/donk aren't all necessarily rec players. Fish is a loose, passive player who check/calls a lot. Donk is just a dumb player who over-raises pre-flop. Bets when there's a flush or str8 on the board then folds to a raise, etc.

Rec players are interesting as they come in all shapes and forms. The thing I noticed the most with rec players is their lack of time. They play very infrequently. They seek fun a lot more than the pro. So, by definition, they'll play a lot more starting hands. Their fun isn't from waiting for premium hands or seeing if the book they just read can be applied successfully. Most don't read books, forums, etc. The most noticeable thing with rec players is that they don't know proper bet sizing in NLHE. And, in Limit games, they do not show a pattern in terms of position. Meaning, you'll often see that they play certain hands like pocket 99 the same way whether they are in mid position or on the button.

But, it's a bit misleading to say all rec players are fishes or donks.

Especially in Limit, there are many rec players that play a solid TAG game and leave with your chips more often than you think.