Same game as in this thread:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/53...ction-1448036/

and less than an orbit later.

Villian 1 is a full time pro. This is actually a different pro than the one in the above thread, but the same description accurately describes this player as well.

Villian 2 is an average to below average asian woman, late 30s - early 40s. She tries to play well but does not understand many fundamental concepts about preflop and postflop play. Is often willing to put in a lot of action on the flop with her strong hands, but will often play the big streets extremely cautiously to the point where she usually misses obvious value bets and can frequently be raised off of the best hand. I believe she is also capable of jamming a draw for value and/or as a free card play on the flop although it is not habitual and more commonly she will just play her draws passively. Today it seems like she has been experimenting with trying to become more aggressive than usual preflop as she has been 3! hands that she usually cold calls with.

8 players dealt in. V1 raises UTG. V2 3! on the button. Hero caps it in the small blind with AK

13 small bets.

FLOP: AJ7

I bet, V1 calls, V2 raises. I decide to just call. V1 now 3! and V2 caps. I call (???). V1 calls.

TURN: 9

I check, V1 checks, V2 bets. And I ... ?

I just 3-bet the flop against 2 villains. No reason to slowplay on a drawy board where you can get value from draws.

Call down as played unless the betting gets really heavy.

Definitely 3-bet flop.

As played, I doubt the 9 helped V1 (unless he has T8 exactly, which would be hard given his position and a table dynamic that likely wouldn't let him get away with opening T8s UTG). V2 could've realistically flopped a set or AJ, but I've seen many players who meet the description of "maniac on flops, passive on big streets", and they have hands on this board that AK beats. I'd call.

V1 is interesting. Described as a pro. At first glance, I thought his flat then backraise move was donkish... But maybe it's brilliant. I can't decide yet.

Any pro would fast play a set on this flop. AJ would lead the turn. The only hands I can see him having are AQ/ATcc.

That leaves V2. After you just call flop, she could be barreling AQ/AK for value. That makes me want to call down.

Thanks guys for your feedback on this hand so far.

I want to try to expand a bit on my own thought processes, reads and analysis of the situation and see whether or not folks here feel that these are flawed.

Admittedly, I was a bit lost in this hand as I was somewhat surprised to be facing so much aggression after I capped an UTG raise and a 3! and bet a flop that hits my range.

I think my description of Villian 2 might be slightly misleading. Generally, this is a careful and cautious player. She seems to be actively working on becoming more aggressive because she often gets a bit run over in the game when she plays. In general, my observation is that she will more correctly get value with her value hands on the flop (but is certainly not a maniac) but then will often proceed to play scared on the big streets and check through with clearly winning hands or will often fold the winner on the turn when raised (and therefore plays the big streets scared and checks through, etc). I also normally do not see her jam her draws on the flop but it is definitely a possibility.

My read on V1 as soon as he called my flop bet was that he was delaying to the turn to raise. This would include hands like AK and AQ as well as some bigger hands (but not necessarily his monsters). It's possible that he's peeling with a hand like QQ, especially if he has a club, but for whatever reason I just felt like he was setting up to raise the turn.

When V2 raised the flop, quite frankly I was pretty sure that I was beat. From her perspective, she is in a hand against two strong players who generally play good hands and who have shown considerable strength -- one of them raised UTG full ring and the other one capped it preflop out of position from the small blind and C-bet the ace high board. I believe that the worst value hand that she is raising here is AQ and she might not even be raising that without a club. Now, once the pro back raises the flop, I would be very surprised if she could cap the flop with AQ. She is generally a cautious player. However, I'm hoping that she could be drawing, or that she could have an ace and a flush draw (which would render my 2nd nut flush backdoor draw useless but would mean that my pair of aces is good so far).

When the pro back raises this flop, I was somewhat thrown off, as I have played quite a bit with this player and could not remember ever seeing him make this play. I do recognize that my call might make it seem like I don't have an ace or a set and has now decided to push an equity edge with hands like AQ and AK and not allow the turn to possibly check through. I believe that he could also play big hands like sets this way if he originally decided that he was going to raise me on the turn to charge the max from a flush draw and now, again, has decided to maximize value on the flop and not allow the turn to check through. In addition, he could also now be pushing some sort of combo draw like QT if that's in his preflop range (for this Villian I would discount but not eliminate this particular hand based on preflop ranges).

When V2 caps the flop, I felt like unless she has decided to jam a draw (which she doesn't always do), I am now beat. But, in this bloated pot my backdoor flush draw pretty much keeps me in the pot at this point. Plus, because of how she plays, whether or not she bets the turn will provide me with a lot more information. She would likely take the free card if she is drawing and she will bet only strong made hands.

On the turn, I was somewhat surprised to see the pro check. In my mind, this discounted his range significantly. I know that he knows that V2 might check this turn through so if he has a set he would just bet it and would not be going for a checkraise here. My range for V1 is now mostly a pair of aces or a flush draw (but probably not both).

When V2 bets the turn that is trouble. But at this point the pot has gotten pretty enormous and so it feels like another gross decision ...

Any feedback on these thoughts are appreciated!

*grunch*
Having capped preflop and led out with TPTK, I really don't like just calling V2's raise. The flop is fairly juicy, and there is someone (a solid player capable of making good reads) along for the ride. Unless the plan is to checkraise safe turn cards, we should be retaking the lead here; and I don't like the k/r-the-turn plan because you have identified V2 as being capable of freecarding.

What ranges do the villains have? What sort of range do you think V1 puts you on when you call V2's flop raise? Why do you think V1 three-bet after you called? (It isn't going to be an isolation play, because no one is folding.) I am thinking that they either have a flopped monster (such as AA or JJ) or are raising a flush draw for value.

On the turn, V1 checks again. I would call V2's bet, with the intention of paying one more bet to see a showdown. If we call and V1 raises again, we should fold to the second bet then and there, because we're paying at least one more on the river before the hands are shown.

Whoops, I've been spelling "villain" wrong, haha!

V1 raised under the gun preflop and from my observations he is relatively snug in that situation, showing up with perhaps something like:

88+, AJo+, ATs+, KJs+

I'm not sure if a few extra suited cards will sneak in here due to the fact that two people were walking and so only 8 players were dealt into this hand.

With this flop and with this pot size, he might be calling with his whole range (possibly dumping 88 and 99 with no club).

V2 reraised preflop, but her preflop range is too wide for this situation. In this session she seems to be reraising with most of the hands that she normally cold calls with. I think she can have something like:

77+, ATo+, KJo+, A7s+, KJs+, QJs

However, when she raises this flop after I cap and c-bet, I believe she has:

AA, JJ, 77, A7s, AJs, AJo, AKs, AKo, Ac8c, Ac9c, AcTc, AcQc, KcQc (discounted) and maybe AcQo (discounted).

Note that I'm not doing well against this range, but I'm not doing so poorly that I should fold getting 17 to 1 either obviously.

This is a good question. I believe that V1 fully expects me to 3! my AK, AQ, AJ, AA, JJ part of my range here. Once I just call, I believe he is putting me on:
KK, QQ, TT

This is an interesting play imo. I believe there are a couple of reasons for this play.

First, once I just call the flop raise, he likely feels like I'm in the weakest part of my range for this board, which would be my pocket pairs. Therefore, if he was unsure before where he was at with, say, AQ, he might now be confident that such a hand has me beaten. So, he might feel like he can now jam AK and AQ for value.

Likewise, if he had a decent draw (like KcQc), he may not have wanted to drive out the third player before, but now that she is clearly in, he can now jam the draw for value.

Another possibility is that he was assuming that I would be double barreling a large percentage and he was planning on delaying to the turn to raise in order to create a less desirable price for the third player to continue with a draw (In other words, the pot was so bloated preflop that he might feel that a flop raise does not protect his hand, therefore, he must wait until the turn to raise to protect his hand). However, once the third player raises and I just call, his plan to raise the turn is now thwarted since I am unlikely to lead out on the turn. In addition, the third player might be free carding, so he must now jam his perceived equity advantage now and bet again on the turn for value, knowing that he can no longer protect his hand anyway.

So, after the flop action, I feel like I can narrow down V1's range to:

AK, AQ, AJ, AA, JJ, AcTc (discounted), KcQc

I discount AcTc because it makes more sense for him to just raise the flop right away with that one imo.



Ok, so if I stove my hand against these two ranges on this flop (I apologize, I'm not familiar with how to post stove results into these threads), my result is that I have 14.87% equity in this hand.

Again, I'm not doing well against their ranges, but at 11 to 1 (after the flop is capped) I still have to continue. Which brings us to ...

It seems like the general consensus here is that I should just go ahead and 3! the flop. Normally, I tend to agree with that and I typically do raise or fold with my made hands on the flop in multiway situations.

However, I have some questions about this which I hope you guys can help to answer...

It seems to me that the reasons to raise or reraise on the flop with a decent made hand such as TPTK is to extract value (because we have more than our share of pot equity) and also to protect our hand (by thinning the field to improve our winning chances, OR, by causing calling mistakes from weak draws who no longer have the correct price to continue).

However, here is a situation where the pot is so bloated that raising is unlikely to protect my hand. Furthermore, if my estimation is correct and I really do only have about 15% equity in this pot, what value am I extracting with a raise?

In other words, suppose I have some sort of a made hand with decent showdown value and yet, I have only 15% equity in a 3-way pot? OR, suppose I have some sort of a weak draw, such as a gutshot draw to the nuts which has no current showdown value, also with around 15% equity in a 3-way pot? Why would it be correct to raise in one case and call in the other case?

Thanks for your help!