Live 40/80, 5 handed

BB is a tough pro, taking a break from the 150/300 mixed game to splash around and have some fun in our game. Plays a lot of hands, recently tabling 4's up and 6's up. Plays them very well post flop.

I've been playing few hands, mostly because the strong LAG on my right has been 3 betting the BB all night to isolate the weaker opening ranges.

Open 109 from the CO, BB Calls.

Flop is 732 BB Check, Bet & BB Call.

Turn is 8 BB Check, Bet, BB Raise, 3! & BB mumbles incoherently and Calls.

River is 4 BB Check, Bet & BB Call.

I announce my 10 high, BB rolls over K8o to take the pot.

Interested in the community's thoughts on the turn 3! and river bluff. Too spewy? Thank you.

J Lot

Hey welcome to the LHE forums.

Try putting this on paper: with which hands would you think he'd check/raise this turn and then fold without showdown? Compare to all hands he'll show down.

You'll find that you should just call the turn. The fact that he dropped down from a higher limit game doesn't mean he'll make hero folds.

I think it's OK to 3 bet bluff occasionally with your hand or whatever the smallest diamonds you have in this spot are. But definitely not every time you have them.

Also, I don't think we're trying to get him to hero fold. We're targeting his semi bluffs that beat us and possibly the bottom of his value range. And we're including bluffs occasionally so he can't start making exploitative folds against our 3 bets, knowing that they are only value hands.

I wouldn't do it without T9, J9 or JT.

Would you bet all three hands on river?

Depends on the river card. On this river, my value range is something like 14 combos of sets and top two and my opponent is getting 10:1 on a river call, so I think we should bet Td9d and some Jd9d.

If you 3 bet overpairs profitably, then you might be able to bluff more on the turn and river, but I'd rather have a flushdraw than a straightdraw in that case.

That seems wrong. You should want like the 65dd more than the JT. And if you're three betting as a bluff what are you trying to bluff that you don't beat with JT? And when you bet the river? You're basically only targeting the three larger flush draws

I'd be less likely to worry about balance against an opponent who I know is not a regular in my game. I'd focus more on balance against habitual opponents.

Well if his range is that value heavy then I don't like my advice.

You should worry about balance vs. players better than you regardless of how much you play against them. Because they are either going to be balanced vs. you and win money because you are unbalanced, or they will figure out in what ways you are unbalanced and exploit that to win even more money.

I would b/3b 99+ for value. Calling down from turn with QQ+ definitely too scared.

56s, 9Ts (with or without diamonds) are my preferred candidates to b/3b bluff.

Seems fine.

So much this^^

Hand seems fine he just had an 8 nothing you could do about that.

Thanks very much for the advice. I think I'm resisting "balance" because I don't understand it enough and I'm trying to justify not getting into it deep enough.

Ok, so trying to understand a little better.

So we balance 3-bet-semibluffing OESDs and mid-flush draws with 3-betting for value with A8 or better? Do we 3bet K8/Q8?

Hands over a certain strength are going to be profitable to 3 bet for value but it's also going to be profitable to bluff a certain percentage of the time. This percentage is going to change based on ranges and the size of the pot. I think it's weird to conceptualize that a bluff and a value bet could both be profitable in the same spot but it's true. (Think about a big pot where we know our opponent has a medium strength hand that will call our river bet 50% of the time. Clearly, betting both our bluffs and the nuts in that spot will be profitable).

So we're not bluffing just so he will call when we have a value hand (although that aspect is key in that it prevents him from exploiting us). We are bluffing sometimes because even if he is playing GTO with no adjustments for how frequently we're bluffing, the bluffs we make will still be profitable bets.

In some situations it is only going to be profitable to bluff a super small percentage of the time that approaches 0. In those situations (generally when ranges have become very narrow and the pot is very big) you could probably get away with never bluffing, even against an expert. But in this situation, ranges are still wide enough that we should be bluffing some non-miniscule percentage of the time. It's still a pretty low percentage though, which is why I think most people are only suggesting bluffing with 1 or 2 combos (or with some more combos but not every time).

^Makes perfect sense to me.

^This is where I'm more troubled - determining the frequency - number of bluffing combos relative to value combos. On the river, it's all clear cut - simple formula. On earlier streets, I feel it's more an art than a science. I probably should get into learning to do simulations when I feel my fundamentals are acceptable.

^I do get this part as well. Sometimes, our actions on previous streets and the runout will make it such that we don't have much to represent when bluffing. In wider range situations, this is often not the case.

Thanks for taking the time CrazyLond!

You can mathematically deduce the percentage you should be bluffing in any situation, but in pretty much any poker situation there are going to be way too many variables to calculate it on the spot. But the more situations you encounter and try to analyze and the better you get at putting your opponent on a range, the closer I think you can get to figuring out how often to bluff. Having said that, I am sure my own bluffing frequencies still could use some improvement.

Then the other part is figuring out where in your own range you are and choosing the correct hands to bluff with. I mentioned earlier I tend to randomize slightly with my bluffs. I think a lot of good players just choose the hands they are continuing with that have the least showdown value (in this spot; river bluffs are different). I think this is usually ok and this is the core of my strategy but I think adding slight randomization is better.

For example, in the op if your only 3 bet bluff is 56s, they could theoretically get away from a lot of hands on this river card. But the randomization part comes more naturally for me and fits in well with some other things I try to do with physical tells etc. I struggle more with the figuring out the correct frequencies part of it, but I think I have improved a bit there by paying attention to how often other good players bluff (and playing the GTO bot heads up).

That's one area I have to focus on next. Better understanding of their range, my own range, then the subset of my range appropriate to bluff targeting a predefined subset of their range (I don't want to sound like I know exactly what I'm talking about here...it's getting clearer as I type). And then I have to make sure that I have enough value hands with which to take that same exact line. Defining "enough", I think, is essential in "figuring out how often to bluff".

The randomizing part, I think I can leave off the workbench for now until I become more confident. It may be something that takes care of itself as skill improves and experience in tougher games is accumulated. Maybe that's why you feel it "comes more naturally" for you.

I assume cepheus? I haven't tried it, but I'll look into it. It's gonna be a little lower on the priority list though.

Then what do you have in your range to bluff the river after calling the turn? As noted upthread, J9 and JT have some showdown value vs a check raise bluffing range, which is part of the reason that I prefer to bluff with those hands more often than the easily dominated draws on the turn.

Hey Jlot, welcome to the forum,

Have you seen the big blind take this line and fold to the 3 bet? What kind of turn check raising range do you put him on and how much of that folds immediately on the turn, or on the river?

If the big blind never folds to the turn 3 bet, but sometimes on the river, then we're talking about a 3 big bet investment to win 7 big bets. Does he fold 30% of his range on the river?

If he folds the turn sometimes, then we can get away with a little less river fold equity, but I'm not sure exactly how much.

Hi Bob148. I'm certainly no authority on this, but I agree with phunkphish and ZOMG that semibluffing the turn with 56dd and T9dd is better than doing it with J high hands, just because you are actually targeting a larger portion of his range. These hands will cbet the river as bluff. I don't think we should take an inferior line on the turn just so we have something to bluff with on the river if we just called the turn. 3betting with J high hands "because we have SD value" feels like a FSDR to me, and when called, we end up owning ourselves often. Just a thought. Sometimes we will just not have enough bluffs in our range on the river, and maybe that's fine.

If you think 3 bet bluffing the turn here is going to be profitable vs his range, you probably need to consider just calling twice. I think calling twice with J-10 and J-9 is superior to bluff raising turn so calling has to be close.


This is just going off the assumption that he'll never fold a pair and Js unlikely to raise A high and K hi flush draws

Thank you for the welcome Bob and all the great feedback guys.

I haven't seen the BB take this line and fold to a 3 bet previously, mostly because we haven't played many hours together. I think his turn check raising range is something like some 7's, 8's, two pair, sets, stronger draws (8 outs+) and maybe a few outright bluffs. He has a wide defending range in the BB so he could have lots of combos here. Likely not folding much of this range on the turn. Maybe a 7, but he might take one off to try and hit two pair.

On the river I think he would fold some 7's and draws... Probably call down with an A high flush draw. Looks like it's close enough for government work and it likely has some future value for next time we play together.

Thank you again everyone for the helpful thoughts and discussion!

J Lot

standard jlot hand. i hear the best player in CT would have simply hit the J on the river and thus would have taken the bb to valuetown. shame that didn't happen here.

otherwise, nice hand. i hope you tabled the hand proudly rather than just announced t-high and mucked.