$40-$80

Villain 1 = 55ish year old. Spot in the game. First time I have seen him limp here, but he plays pretty much every hand in the non-holdem games. He is usually aggressive on 3rd street and then calls down way too light after that.

Villain 2 = Tries to play good but plays too many hands and is not aggressive enough. He can never have a queen here.

Villain 1 limps UTG, I raise CO with red 7s. Villain 2 flats the button. 3 ways.

Flop is Q55 with 2 spades. I bet Villain 2 calls, Villain 1 c/r ????

3-bet, get it head-up, check behind on the turn, call the river unless 2 more 5s or a 7 come.

Wait, if we are advocating a flop 3!, it's because we think villain has lots of air/FDs, right?

Against a villain who "calls down too light", we should be taking advantage by betting the turn, not checking to induce a bluff. If our hand is strong enough to 3! for value, why won't it be on the turn?

That being said, I love a flop 3!, since I think we can knock out 6 outs behind us and extract value from villain.

I'm not sure the description that someone "is usually aggressive on 3rd street and then calls down way too light after that" applies to this particular spot. A lot of holdem players that fit that description may not get out of line on this flop bc there's too much danger of running into a hand or draw. I would 3-bet and bet the turn. I don't see the flop 3-bet as extracting value from villain 1, I see it as maximizing our equity in the hand, as you said we want v2's probable 6 outs to fold. given op description, if he raises turn or riv, we might find a fold.

"3-bet, get it head-up, check behind on the turn, call the river unless 2 more 5s or a 7 come"

I lol'd at making a plan which included running 55's possibly coming. . .

I agree with you that 3betting the flop to check back the turn in this spot is an inconsistent strategy.

Knocking out 6 outs behind us is all well and good, but from what reasonably played hands to we get value? 6 combos of 66 and that's about it.

3b flop only to check turn is a classic noob play of hedging your read. If we think we're ahead, 3b for value and barrel turn. If we think we're behind, just call, letting worse bluff or plan to fold on a future street. Free carding doesn't make sense on this board.

With your read that raiser is a maniac, go for value. For unknowns, I don't think they often bluff multiway here, and id find a fold somewhere along the way.

Getting value here doesn't necessarily mean we're ahead of v1's hand on the flop. It could mean we're charging likely overcards (if we happen to be ahead) on the flop, and possibly making hands fold on the turn that shouldn't if they knew we had 77. . . .

define "getting value". the first situation you describe is getting value from v1's overcards. the second is a bluff? i'm confused.

what reasonable hands does v1 play this way?

The assumption I am making, along with others, is that V1 is an unreasonable player here and could be b/c'ing all sorts of trash (like flush draws). Guys love waiting for the turn with a 5 here.

We can b/f turn comfortably because players like this don't get out of line on big streets.

We're not turning our hand into a bluff, and he's not folding anything that beats us. We're putting him on a range given op's description that he overplays flops and calls down too lightly...Assuming it's a mixed game, since op said he plays almost every hand in other games, a lot of mix players treat ace high in holdem like it's unfoldable, and cr every draw on the flop and play the hand out like they already have the nuts. They can be uniquely random-aggressive. That's why I (and jdr and phunkphish) like the 3-bet/barrel line here.

call and reevaluate turn.

I think we can safely assume v1 will bet the turn

I don't understand the read that V2 "can never have a queen here." Is this because they flatted our flop c-bet? (You say they are "not aggressive enough.") It seems to me that a lot of two-in-the-face players will have hands like KQ and QJ in their range, and if they aren't aggressive enough they would not raise their top pair on this "scary" board.

I don't like three-bet flop/check behind turn, and I'm not in love with three-bet flop/barrel turn. It seems to me that playing fast here will fold out hands we beat and get action from hands that crush us.

I'm thinking call the k/r and call down, folding on the river if the board is bad for us.

I've just played with the guy for a while and know based on lol live reads he doesnt have a queen here. He can have a suited 5, an under pair on the queen, spades, or some such AJ that he is peeling with. Raising the flop never even came close to crossing my mind.

I still have a hard time understanding how a Q is not in his range even with "lol live reads." :P I mean, you said he's trying to play well, so he will always raise top pair even with a medium-ish kicker? Seems like folks always have some sort of King-Queeny-offsuity type hand cold calling preflop in their range, including those that are attempting to play well.

AQo is probably a reraise as a standard means to knock the blinds out. But he likes to just cold call AJo OTB? What about KQs? Maybe he flats that, too? I would think that KQ would be in the realm of possible hands, if AJ is... But your hand reading might be better than mine.

He would always raise a queen cause it is vulnerable but never. 5

Must play super transparently then. I'm just playing devil's advocate but I would expect some trickiness of a KQ (esp. with K of spades) waiting to pop the turn at least ocassionally...since raising the flop will tend to say "I probably have a Q guys, remember I cold called preflop?"

But I guess not from this guy that only raises trips on the turn and TP on the flop...and just calls flops with Ax overcards and smaller PPs.

and looking at the turn card you reevaluate

Given that pretty much no cards help us on the turn, this seems like a bad idea.

Fold the flop. You have shown strength but now have a marginal hand facing a call and then a raise.

What's more, the raise from v1 is into two players, and v2 clearly has something, because he called your bet with a player still to act.

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I agree, given the reads, it's kinda close between a fold and a call. I wouldn't consider 3-betting. Unless V1 never raises preflop, he could have a bigger PP than 77 being tricky by limping UTG and will just call it down anyway. I guess it also depends on how much V1 likes to check-raise flops.

V2 apparently is easy to read, so either a draw or a 5. If he wakes up on the turn, 77 is no good esp if it's a non-spade A. If V1 puts more than 1 raise in on an A showing up anywhere, I wouldn't be surprised if he had AA.

But given the action and the board, this hand will probably see a river and 77 will probably find a fold somewhere along the way anyway.

Ugh, meant to edit not reply.

Dang smartphones.