Thank you for taking the time to explain yourself.

I tried to use a poker odds calculator to figure this out, but I am not really sure how those things work or what the results mean. These are the results I got where hand 0 is the MP raiser, hand 1 is the SB and hand 2 is the BB.


equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 32.182% 30.27% 01.93% 25141559 1603289.50 { 66+, A9s+, KJs+, QJs, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 1: 45.913% 44.00% 01.94% 36545860 1609658.33 { JJ+, AQs+, AQo+ }
Hand 2: 21.905% 21.63% 00.29% 17961438 242812.67 { K5s }


It spits out about 21.9% for the BB. If the game is 20/40 the total pot is going to have $120 in it preflop. BB would have had to put in $20 of that $120, or about 16.7%. If we change BB's hand to 44 or 76s, the number jumps to 26%.

Like I said I am not really sure how to use these poker calculating tools, but isn't it bad to let him call with K5s since his number is 21.9% but he only has to put in 16.7% of the money, and even worse when he has 44 or 76s?

-Wang

Wang, I'm with you dude.

This discussion has gotten really really weird. I feel like there must be some leveling going on. The whole thing started off as a balance thing, but now the same people who were talking about balance are talking about making plays preflop with incredibly unbalanced ranges. It's my belief that the earlier the street, the more important balance is (To prevent your ranges from being too transparent and easily played against on multiple streets).

And there's no chance I'm folding my BB with K5s if a good player coldcalls the SB. That's insanity. People ITT are playing out hands in vacuums and not taking any macro-game things into consideration.

Why aren't you folding K5s in the BB if a good player calls in the SB, and what would you think SB has?

-Wang

This is my point exactly. You're making a mistake against our respective ranges by calling with Kx or Qx or Ax or whatever in this spot. Not only do you not have 20% equity against our ranges; you also have a hand that suffers from bad RIO against the exact hands in our very narrow ranges.

There's nothing inherently unbalanced about calling or threebetting in this spot. Also just because my range is narrow and strong doesn't make it unbalanced for the situation. As the ranges get narrower, the hands that were once the strong ones in your range become weaker and weaker. In this spot, you're doing the same thing with the bottom of your range (and the middle and the top). Hence your range is balanced.

If, on the other hand, I were to only cc with my biggest hands and threebet hands that want ppl to fold (e.g. AK, AQ, TT), my range would be unbalanced. You may agree or disagree with the play, but my comments about balance stand, and are, I think, correct.

Jeremy,

We're just gonna have to agree to disagree on the K5s front. There's a stove about 5 posts up that gives K5s 21% equity vs some supertight ranges though, fwiw.

I'm also not really sure what point you're trying to make about coldcalling preflop from the SB against an opener and a bunch of folds. I won't be implementing the play into my strategy anytime soon, but if ever it becomes a common play in the games, I'll be sure to give you credit for calling it out in this thread.

If we assume a squeaky tight range for SB (AKo, AKs, KK and AA) and a very reasonable range for the MP raiser, BB can call with over 50% of hands and still have more than 21% equity in the pot. I am not sure where ontherail15 got his "less than 20%" number. Hopefully he will post it for us.


equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 52.575% 50.95% 01.63% 15121332 482989.50 { KK+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 26.138% 24.52% 01.62% 7275980 481806.83 { 55+, A7s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+ }
Hand 2: 21.287% 20.80% 00.48% 6174430 143655.50 { TT-22, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J7s+, T6s+, 96s+, 85s+, 74s+, 63s+, 53s+, 43s, AQo-A2o, K9o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T7o+, 97o+, 86o+, 75o+, 65o, 54o }

-Wang

This may be true against bad players, but in your example BB is a "good/creative" player. When a "good/creative" player sees your call from the SB his first thought is going to be "WTF? What can this guy have that he can be the first coldcaller from the SB?" (If he's not trying to read the hands of his opponents, then he doesn't qualify as a "good/creative player".) He knows you cannot have hands like 76s and 33, because calling from the SB with those hands in this spot is not profitable. So what's left? Big hands. Thus a "good/creative" player is not going to give you excessive action here with 1 pair. You will get action, however, from hands that have you beat or huge draws that have the equity in the pot to warrant said action.

In limit hold'em there are times when one's options are limited because of the structure of the game, specifically the value of position and blind structure. It's like a caste system; if you're at the bottom your options are limited. It's not good or bad, it just is how the game is.

One of the biggest mistakes that people make is trying to be too fancy in those situations, and this "being the first caller from the SB nonsense" is a perfect example. The SB is arguably the worst position in the game. It follows that the worst position is going to have very limited options. That may not be fair, but that is the way that it is. Trying to fight it is only going to cause you problems.

-Wang

I understand you don't agree with the play, but you called the strategy "unbalanced" which is incorrect imo since I'm doing the same thing with my whole playing range. It's just as unbalanced as a threebet in the same spot. They are both narrow range plays, but they aren't unbalanced.

You also need to recognize that there's more than hot/cold equity going on when you decide to play a hand like this preflop. Against some extremely narrow ranges, you don't have quite the right price to call. I'm sure if you widen those ranges a bit, you will. That's kind of beside the point. You're going to run into all kinds of RIO and reverse domination issues and, even if you always play awesome post flop, you'll really struggle to make this a profitable call with some of the hands you probably think are fairly "easy" calls here. I'm thinking of hands like K6s or A8o or whatever.

Again I understand why people push back here, but I also think the play has a ton of merits in very specific situations.

Yeah yeah, I take back what I said about the balance stuff, but if you're coldcalling with the same range you'd 3bet, then you suffer from the same issues about narrowing your range too much. Maybe you can coldcall a bit wider than you can 3bet, especially when calling with everything... I dunno. Like I said, I won't write if off, but won't rush to implement it into my own game for now.

I totally and completely understand what you mean about the playability of the "big/little" hands. I'm a staunch believer in all of that stuff and have posted about it lots of times before... But suited Kx is simply never going into the muck here for me preflop. Even if SB flats everything, there aren't that many catastrophic situations that arise where you're gonna be outkicked and losing a lot of bets postflop. You're in position against the guy whose range you're afraid of, and do very well against a CO opener's range.

So you are balancing HOW you play, not WHAT you play.

The problem is that WHAT you are playing is extremely narrow (as you yourself have stated), so it is quite easy for a good/creative player to know what you have. And good/creative players are who you are up against in this spot.

The instant you enter the pot, your range is known to both of your opponents. Like it or not, this is the case because of the fact you are in the SB, and the SB is a terrible, unprofitable place to be.

By just calling you allow BB to play a wide range of hands not only getting 5:1, but also knowing almost exactly what you have.

By 3betting preflop you force BB to fold most of the time.

Playing out of position against one good/creative player is significantly more profitable than playing out of position against two good/creative players, especially when they know what you have.

The only thing you are balancing by sometimes 3betting and sometimes calling is the correct play with the playing of the super bad.

-Wang

Wang,

For a guy who presumably doesn't play Internet LHE, it sounds like you sure do play against a whole bunch of experts.

BigBadBabar,

Please answer the question I have posed for you.

Thanks,

-Wang

wangstein,

no thanks. good luck in your new incarnation.

BBB