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In which a player too good for 20 tortures a player who thinks he's too good for 20 In which a player too good for 20 tortures a player who thinks he's too good for 20
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12-30-2014 , 04:52 PM
#26
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In general, I don't think people bluff in this way often enough - even really good players.

I would play it the same as you and fold the river. We have every other ace in our range and I think if we called with all of them it would be a mistake.
In which a player too good for 20 tortures a player who thinks he's too good for 20 Quote
12-30-2014 , 04:55 PM
#27
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3-betting this turn is not very good.
In which a player too good for 20 tortures a player who thinks he's too good for 20 Quote
12-30-2014 , 05:21 PM
#28
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I think we're good on the turn often enough to 3 but w/ so many cards to fade (K-T) it's one of the few spots I like waiting 'till the river. Tough to fold vs someone you're not sure what level he's thinking on.
In which a player too good for 20 tortures a player who thinks he's too good for 20 Quote
12-30-2014 , 06:14 PM
#29
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I am pretty unhappy with my hand on the turn after the c/r against most reasonable ranges and the river card moves the hands that were behind ahead of you, so you need an A4 that bets the river or a bluff at 21.5:2? Probably asking too much.
In which a player too good for 20 tortures a player who thinks he's too good for 20 Quote
12-30-2014 , 07:31 PM
#30
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I doubt it's close in terms of finding an equalibrium bluff catcher (easy call). Everyone arguing we should fold is asking us to play exploitively. Which is fine but it should be said. I think for example, folding an ace vs me in this spot is horrible.
In which a player too good for 20 tortures a player who thinks he's too good for 20 Quote
12-30-2014 , 08:17 PM
#31
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I mean I think it's closer than you think it is, OTR, but I'm still working out general approximations bc I can't get two "authorities appealed to" here earlier to agree on a contracted "get to river in this manner range" so that we can approximate what the bottom 10% of that set of hands is.

With a wider range of DC-hands facing one bet on the river I agree with you, fwiw. DC's and/or a correct bet-when-checked to turn range is both an interesting and open question tho, imo
In which a player too good for 20 tortures a player who thinks he's too good for 20 Quote
12-30-2014 , 08:47 PM
#32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DosXX
In general, I don't think people bluff in this way often enough - even really good players.

I would play it the same as you and fold the river. We have every other ace in our range and I think if we called with all of them it would be a mistake.
Right. This is how I feel too. I do agree with otr that it's exploitable. Btw this is a good interesting hand post !
In which a player too good for 20 tortures a player who thinks he's too good for 20 Quote
12-31-2014 , 05:46 AM
#33
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DD - do you change your mind about the turn 3b?

V has 16 strs, 8 sets, 12 bigger two pairs. He has 9 smaller 2 pair, 16 AQ/ak.

Even with wide PF ranges, I'm now thinking further aggression is bad.
In which a player too good for 20 tortures a player who thinks he's too good for 20 Quote
12-31-2014 , 11:46 AM
#34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheRail15
I think for example, folding an ace vs me in this spot is horrible.
Doesn't that then mean that not folding an ace in this spot against you is the opposite of "horrible"?
In which a player too good for 20 tortures a player who thinks he's too good for 20 Quote
12-31-2014 , 04:54 PM
#35
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No
In which a player too good for 20 tortures a player who thinks he's too good for 20 Quote
01-01-2015 , 12:22 AM
#36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phunkphish
DD - do you change your mind about the turn 3b?

V has 16 strs, 8 sets, 12 bigger two pairs. He has 9 smaller 2 pair, 16 AQ/ak.

Even with wide PF ranges, I'm now thinking further aggression is bad.
Sort of yes. But I think he should never go for a cr with his nutty hands that can try to bet 3 bet so it may depend on assumptions.
In which a player too good for 20 tortures a player who thinks he's too good for 20 Quote
01-01-2015 , 01:12 AM
#37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheRail15
No
If folding is "horrible", then isn't the best play to just call you down? Or should we be raising at some point?
In which a player too good for 20 tortures a player who thinks he's too good for 20 Quote
01-01-2015 , 01:13 AM
#38
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Highly doubt I am folding this river to anyone who has a semibluff range on the turn. Which means an internet pro is not someone I am folding top pair to. 98s, Q9s, and QJ are in their range along with flush draws.
In which a player too good for 20 tortures a player who thinks he's too good for 20 Quote
01-01-2015 , 01:19 AM
#39
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If we need hands worse than AQ to call here (as seems likely), then this one is the best, since it blocks the most value hands (e.g. 44).

IRL I would tend to exploitably fold against most villains, even those I know to be superstar pros without whom I do not have extensive history. Here, I would not be exploiting an inherent weakness in their game but the information asymmetry between us (not knowing who I am would force him by default to not bluff enough at least by the river).
In which a player too good for 20 tortures a player who thinks he's too good for 20 Quote
01-01-2015 , 01:28 AM
#40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thesilverbail
If we need hands worse than AQ to call here (as seems likely), then this one is the best, since it blocks the most value hands (e.g. 44).

IRL I would tend to exploitably fold against most villains, even those I know to be superstar pros without whom I do not have extensive history. Here, I would not be exploiting an inherent weakness in their game but the information asymmetry between us (not knowing who I am would force him by default to not bluff enough at least by the river).
Very good point about a4 being the best ace to cd with.
In which a player too good for 20 tortures a player who thinks he's too good for 20 Quote
01-01-2015 , 01:48 AM
#41
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It also blocks A4 which might be the only value hand we chop with
In which a player too good for 20 tortures a player who thinks he's too good for 20 Quote
01-01-2015 , 02:47 AM
#42
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If you play like me, your opponent has KJ as a value hand here.
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01-02-2015 , 12:14 PM
#43
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I call.
In which a player too good for 20 tortures a player who thinks he's too good for 20 Quote
01-02-2015 , 01:04 PM
#44
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If folding here is horrible, doesn't that mean we're making it too easy for our opponent to play against us and thus making it easy for them to exploit us?
In which a player too good for 20 tortures a player who thinks he's too good for 20 Quote
01-02-2015 , 01:13 PM
#45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RunnerMan
If folding here is horrible, doesn't that mean we're making it too easy for our opponent to play against us and thus making it easy for them to exploit us?
I think the general consensus is that folding would be the more exploitable line. The debate comes down to whether folding is an exploitative adjustment we can make because many villains, even good ones, aren't bluffing enough on the turn.
In which a player too good for 20 tortures a player who thinks he's too good for 20 Quote
01-02-2015 , 06:52 PM
#46
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I know I'm getting laughed at, but I might check back the turn with the intention of calling just about any river. A4 really isn't that much stronger than AK here and while being vulnerable is a reason to bet, I don't think checking gives up a ton of value and will induce bluffs or bets from worse hands on the river.

Obviously I'm wrong bc NOBODY has even thought to mention this option.
In which a player too good for 20 tortures a player who thinks he's too good for 20 Quote
01-02-2015 , 06:55 PM
#47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyLond
I think the general consensus is that folding would be the more exploitable line. The debate comes down to whether folding is an exploitative adjustment we can make because many villains, even good ones, aren't bluffing enough on the turn.
The board isn't very bluff-friendly for SB. Hero called the A-high flop and still fired the turn into the PFR. What better hand can SB think hero is going to fold here?
In which a player too good for 20 tortures a player who thinks he's too good for 20 Quote
01-02-2015 , 07:03 PM
#48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lestat
I know I'm getting laughed at, but I might check back the turn with the intention of calling just about any river. A4 really isn't that much stronger than AK here and while being vulnerable is a reason to bet, I don't think checking gives up a ton of value and will induce bluffs or bets from worse hands on the river.

Obviously I'm wrong bc NOBODY has even thought to mention this option.
So you are checking back AK here? This isn't NL where we might want pot control and can get check raised off of a medium strength hand. We have two pair. Two of them. Bet 100% outside of your opponent showing you a better hand.
In which a player too good for 20 tortures a player who thinks he's too good for 20 Quote
01-02-2015 , 07:06 PM
#49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RunnerMan
The board isn't very bluff-friendly for SB. Hero called the A-high flop and still fired the turn into the PFR. What better hand can SB think hero is going to fold here?
JQ/JK or both have draw and first to bet wins
In which a player too good for 20 tortures a player who thinks he's too good for 20 Quote
01-02-2015 , 07:12 PM
#50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phunkphish
If we're going to blindly appeal to authority
That is never a good idea, regardless of the context and especially on an internet forum where "authority" can have a variety of meanings.
In which a player too good for 20 tortures a player who thinks he's too good for 20 Quote
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