ok, 1st hh post here. I am wondering how best to charge the monkey in the middle who needs to be punished for his fishiness whilst not spewing drawing dead in a couple recent hands at 20. FYI, I lost both hands and will post results because the result is not the crucial factor in these hands. Both aggressors with initiative in each hand are solid winning players who I have a very good beat on, and this fact contributes towards playing the conservative line in these hands.

Hand 1:
10 handed

I had been on a decent downswing at this point and was thrilled to find a pair. 'Villian who needs to be charged' in this hand is a certified tagfish, i.e. who won't play a hand for an hour, but will snap 3! with ATo as if it's the nuts. The 3 players on my left know me very well and stay out of my way.

Pre: Solid LAG opens the farjack, Villian 3-bets the HJ, I'm next in the CO with black 88. I cap in rhythm (knowing that if I pause, it will betray my hand's marginality, and I've already decided I want to play the hand). Blinds fold, all call, 3 way, 13.5 sb's.

Flop: T83 LAG check, Villain checks, I bet, LAG k/r's, tagfish eats 2 cold, I 3!, LAG doesn't miss a beat and caps, tagfish eats 2 more cold, I call, 3 way, 12.25 bb's.

Turn: J LAG doesn't seem remotely fazed and fires, tagfish calls, I ????? call (b/c I have an overwhelming sense of coolerness, and LAG has a "I have the goods and will snap 3-bet if you try to raise" look in his eye). 3 way, 15.25 bb's

River 4 LAG fires, tagfish folds, I ????? call. 88<TT. 17.25 bb's. boooo



Hand 2, hours earlier.
10 handed.

'Villian who needs to be charged' in this hand is a dopey but not spewy asian loose-fish who enjoys limping and calling down. He plays marginal crap.

Villian is UTG+1 and limps, pretty Solid TAG raises the farjack, all folds to me in BB, I defend JToff (no diamond), Villian calls, 3 way, 6.5 sb's.

Flop. AKQ I check, utg+1 checks, TAG bets, I ?? call, utg+1 calls.

Turn. 3 I ?? lead, utg+1 calls, TAG raises, I ????? call (I firmly put TAG on minimum ATo+ with a diamond and suspect he's possibly raising the turn for a free showdown, but would prefer not to barrel-spew/cry-call if somehow, TAG has Axdd and I'm drawing dead), utg+1 calls, 3 way, 6.25 bb's.

River. 7. I ??? check, utg+1 checks, TAG bets, I ??? call, utg+1 calls. utg+1's 56dd > hero's JT > TAG's AAd , 9.25 bb's. shrug.

Have I gotten coolered cheaply, or have I under-punished likely 'monkeys in the middle' due to simple fear of value-owning myself? Any feedback on turn/river lines would be helpful.

Hand 1, I raise the turn for value if your game is a 4 cap limit preflop. I think villain can play overpair+diamond like this and we have the other guy padding our equity. If villain can/will 5-bet cap QQ+ for value preflop, I play it the same as you and just call down on the turn. Folding anywhere would be very bad.

Hand 2, I just fast play the flop. If villain has a pair he's calling 2 just as often as he's calling 1 bet. We also risk getting free carded on the turn. Again, never fold at any point.

I think you still raise the turn for value in hand 1. Everything up until then is fine (if you're going the play the hand cap PF and if you stove their ranges then you're probably ok and maybe even luck into folding out the first guy every once and a while.)

JFC C/R the flop in hand 1. Go to war. Ram-and-jam.

The turn could be barftastic if you bet, UTG+1 calls and the TAG raises. You call down and call any river non-diamond but it's pretty crappy if he caps the flop and still raises the turn but he could have a set and a diamond or two-pair and the A of trump.

Hand 1 - meh mb, mb not fold pre - move them up a position or two and I'd definitely consider a fold... especially if I didn't have the reads you have... -not sure about raising the turn as others say. There's so much aggression before this this donk screams strength and he might be afraid that it is enough of a scare card that he doesn't want it to check through. Iam a little unsure of this one I must admit. At game speed i'd prolly just call.
Hand 2 - wtf raise the flop!

Hand 1: nh, IMO. Trust your read. Don't raise the turn if you know you're beat.

I think you are missing a ton of value by not raising turn h2. You don't need the nuts to raise for value

Pretty scared play in both of these hands. In hand 1, LAG guy could easily be just as unphased on the turn with AA-QQ, and that's alone is 3x the combos of JJ/TT. Not to mention that it's 3w.

wrt Hand 2 If you're prone to these kind of mistakes (donking the turn and underplaying your hand vs a raise), you should just never wait out of position. That will be approximately correct, and you'll make tons less mistakes.

I've been thinking about this a lot, and I think in reality--if it was me playing the hand, I'm raising here more often than not.

I guess what got me about your OP was that your read was so specific ("he had that look in his eye that he was going to snap 3! if I raise" or whatever). Also, you say these players "know you very well," so I took that to mean that they knew you were strong here--but that may have been a lame assumption--especially on the 20 game at the Borg. Would your LAG villain raise you here with the A of diamonds? I'm guessing he'd definitely raise with J-10... You should probably raise here (so I'm retracting my former post in this thread ).

Hand 2-I never slow play when I flop a straight. Crap I don't even expect to win if I flop a straight. Jam your money in now before the board gets ugly and you get scared.

Hand 1-Yes I think you need to put in more action on the turn. Just resign yourself to the fact that if you go set over set with someone you're going to lose a huge pot.

Hand 2 you NEED to be check raising that flop. Not only can the board become scary for you on the turn but it can become scary for the other player (s). I don't care about potentially losing the 1 other player who would have to cold call 2 on the flop, because there is a good chance that the your original tag raiser has a set or AK/AQ and you will end up getting tons more action on the flop and/or turn from him. Play it hard and fast.