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Math Question: 40-80 FLH (5 Handed)

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03-02-2017 , 08:23 PM

leavesofliberty

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Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 6,296

One fold I have ATs from the CO. I raise, folds to the BB who calls. BB is a strong opponent.

Flop: Q63

Action: Check, bet, raise

Now I have to decide. I think there is a decent chance my opponent is bluffing. It seems like I'm exploitable if I always fold, always, call, or always re-raise, or always turn pop, or always check. How often, and with what hands should I attempt a re-bluff? And, how often should my opponent bluff here? Is ATs a good candidate to bluff?

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03-02-2017 , 08:33 PM

avoidthe9to5

[x] 9to5 avoided

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,662

imo, flatting our whole range vs xr on this flop texture in position is best.

folding would be insane otf. you should be calling with almost all of your hands after cbetting. you should be calling turn here tons as well

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It seems like I'm exploitable if I always fold, always, call, or always re-raise, or always turn pop, or always check.

mixed strategies are important, but I believe you are overthinking it w\ a solid bluffcatcher here. You don't need a mixed strategy for folding.

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How often, and with what hands should I attempt a re-bluff?

on the flop, never imo. flat your whole range vs the xr.

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And, how often should my opponent bluff here?

roughly 25-35% of the time he xr.

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Is ATs a good candidate to bluff?

no. too high up. raise bluffs generally come from the top of your folding range.

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03-02-2017 , 08:37 PM

CrazyLond

veteran

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,931

Hand is too strong to fold, too strong to bluff, and too weak to raise for value at any point unimproved. I would plan to call down as a default.

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03-02-2017 , 08:39 PM

avoidthe9to5

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Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,662

leaves, i highly suggest hiring a coach like BigBadBabar. A few hundred dollars will vastly help your approach & thought process w\ LHE! gl sir

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03-02-2017 , 08:48 PM

leavesofliberty

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Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 6,296

Quote:

Originally Posted by avoidthe9to5

leaves, i highly suggest hiring a coach like BigBadBabar. A few hundred dollars will vastly help your approach & thought process w\ LHE! gl sir

I'll consider it. I've done well at the 20/40 level, but the higher I move up, it gets harder for sure. I've also considered making software tools, and go deep into the computer science, and stay at 20/40 until I finish my lab.

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03-02-2017 , 09:29 PM

avoidthe9to5

[x] 9to5 avoided

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,662

Quote:

Originally Posted by leavesofliberty

I've been playing 40/80 - 100/200 for many years now. Since you're playing 20/40 & with how you currently approach the game (highly exploitative), hiring a good coach is 100% your best option to improve quickly.

Coincidentally it's also your cheapest option. I spent most of my adult life in "the lab" mastering GTO & software solutions. (#degreedProgrammer)

Learning from someone who has the knowledge costs WAY less hours than doing it yourself. And at those stakes it will pay off in a big way for you.

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03-03-2017 , 12:23 AM

gobbo

Trust the fat man.

Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 15,623

Going to also say I like checking back here sometimes too.

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03-03-2017 , 12:52 AM

avoidthe9to5

[x] 9to5 avoided

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,662

Quote:

Originally Posted by gobbo

Going to also say I like checking back here sometimes too.

+1. betting 50-75% of the time otf myself. vs passive honest types 100%

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03-03-2017 , 05:20 AM

steveistheman84

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,438

why would you ever check back this flop? i can't think of there ever being a good reason to.

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03-03-2017 , 06:23 AM

#10

leavesofliberty

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My thought process about bluffing is that if you bluff with hands that are weak-to-medium, you are occasionally called with a worse hand, and still win a weak showdown. I do not know how much merit there is to this line of thought, but I've read it before somewhere to bluff with hands that are not 100% hopeless on the showdown. Even so, then I should be waiting for the river to raise-bluff, and do it with AK or a PP. Or perhaps I should abandon that way of thinking, and bluff with a truly hopeless hand on any one of the streets and follow through.

This is what happened in the hand

Spoiler:

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03-03-2017 , 07:06 AM

#11

steveistheman84

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,438

bluff raising this hand terrible.

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03-03-2017 , 10:08 AM

#12

OnTheRail15

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 4,339

Reasons to chk back are pretty simple. As ranges get wider equities otf run closer together so against reasonable opponents who fight back at good frequencies our incentive to bet flop decreases. This is a good candidate to chk back because it falls in the middle part of our range. We want to bet our best hands and worst hands.

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03-03-2017 , 10:50 AM

#13

steveistheman84

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,438

but this means when we bet, our range is split up 1:1 between complete air and mid pair+. isn't that too much non sd-able air, and wouldn't villain correctly be c/r'ing a ton when we do c/bet?
feels like when we have c/back range, villain plays rivers against us really good.

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03-03-2017 , 04:02 PM

#14

OnTheRail15

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Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 4,339

Well you don't have to chk back just because a hand is a good candidate for it.

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03-03-2017 , 04:51 PM

#15

steveistheman84

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,438

that was my argument in the first place. i agree with this being a good candidate, just don't think this board is a good candidate for c/'ing back anything.

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03-03-2017 , 04:56 PM

#16

avoidthe9to5

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Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,662

Quote:

Originally Posted by steveistheman84

just don't think this board is a good candidate for c/'ing back anything.

this is very 2008 tag logic. vs reasonable opponents cbetting >70% in position on this flop is a mistake. being able to balance a well constructed flop bet & xb range is a mandatory skill to win at high stakes LHE (edit: Not to win, but to suffer less =P)

the equity of your distribution does not support betting your entire range on the flop unless
1) you're against extremely passive/bad opponents who don't raise often enough. This allows you to pound it 100% cbet with a weaker range and go unpunished
or
2) both players overdefend preflop and your range has much higher equity than it should normally have

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03-03-2017 , 08:41 PM

#17

DeathDonkey

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While I defer to some of the great posts already being made I would add one thing. Why are you guys expecting this villain to bluff a lot on Q63? There aren't a lot of obvious draws. He should delay til the turn a good bit.

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03-03-2017 , 08:53 PM

#18

leavesofliberty

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I think bluffing with a decent ace is a play in a hand where you suspect your opponent missed some kind of draw. It's really not very good here in retrospect.

Also, strictly speaking this is a pure strategy (not a mixed strategy), if I'm not mistaken, we're talking about with what exact hands to check back with based on the texture of the board.

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03-04-2017 , 06:02 AM

#19

avoidthe9to5

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Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,662

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathDonkey

There are lots of options to use here to balance the flop xr range imo. very nice w\ bdfd's attached. All of these hands love many different turn cards
KJ JT 87 T9 98
plus the real draws, but only 12 combos of these
54 57 67
maybe they like babies =P
52 42

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03-04-2017 , 06:41 AM

#20

6MaxLHE

veteran

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 2,007

Quote:

Originally Posted by steveistheman84

bluff raising this hand terrible.

Especially when 45 got there. If villian is capable of x/ring the flop with air type hands like JT, T9 I would call down. Otherwise were not beating really anything, as worse ace highs will just x/c and get to showdown.

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03-04-2017 , 10:34 AM

#21

Jon_locke

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Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 4,180

Quote:

Originally Posted by leavesofliberty

I think bluffing with a decent ace is a play in a hand where you suspect your opponent missed some kind of draw.

I don't think you should bluff with A hi when you think your opponent has less than A hi.

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03-04-2017 , 01:43 PM

#22

leavesofliberty

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon_locke

I don't think you should bluff with A hi when you think your opponent has less than A hi.

A lot of busted flush draws are ace highs, and small pairs. Sometimes A hi will call. Sometimes a pair will fold. I haven't run the numbers though.

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03-04-2017 , 02:22 PM

#23

Jon_locke

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Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 4,180

Quote:

Originally Posted by leavesofliberty

A lot of busted flush draws are ace highs, and small pairs. Sometimes A hi will call. Sometimes a pair will fold. I haven't run the numbers though.

We have A ten kicker with a queen out there. Of all the flush draws what % do you think AJs and Aks exactly encompasses (and that's assuming your trying to fold out AKs which didn't 3 bet pf and would actually fold the river, so your basically targeting 1 combo of AJs vs all the hands you beat).

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03-04-2017 , 02:33 PM

#24

leavesofliberty

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon_locke

We have A ten kicker with a queen out there.

I was speaking in general, not this hand. Re-read my posts.

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03-04-2017 , 05:55 PM

#25

Jon_locke

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 4,180

Quote:

Originally Posted by leavesofliberty

Is ATs a good candidate to bluff?

Quote:

Originally Posted by leavesofliberty

I was speaking in general, not this hand. Re-read my posts.

Can't see why I thought you would be talking about bluffing with A-10

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