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01-31-2017 , 04:15 AM

#26

phunkphish

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Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 2,902

Quote:

Originally Posted by steveistheman84

hero can't have a draw with this line tho. i'd figure c/'ing back k hi on turn and calling river gets 1 bet in infinitely better.

If you barrel all your draws when an ace comes on the turn, you're doing it wrong

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01-31-2017 , 10:08 AM

#27

steveistheman84

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,438

i'm not saying you have to barrel. but c/c should not be an option with 8 hi.

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01-31-2017 , 10:22 AM

#28

jdr0317

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I really don't want to construct a strategy around keeping my 8 hi turn screwplay balanced in this spot, so sometimes check call is the only way we can remain balanced if we do opt to check the turn.

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01-31-2017 , 10:41 AM

#29

steveistheman84

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,438

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdr0317

I think AK has plenty of value against peeling ranges here. KQ...I can go either way, really.

which ranges are you running? i got AK at 28% vs a 48% decapitated defense range and a 12% range of 22-66, a2s-a6s, 56s-qts, 57s-q8s, and couple of 98o-j8o type hands.

limping range:
66-22,J9o,T9o-T8o,98o,A8s-A2s,QTs-Q8s,JTs-J8s,T9s-T8s,98s-97s,87s-86s,76s-75s,65s
BB range:
55-22,AJo-A2o,KQo-K5o,QJo-Q6o,JTo-J7o,T9o-T7o,98o-97o,87o-86o,76o,ATs-A2s,KJs-K4s,QJs-Q5s,JTs-J6s,T9s-T6s,98s-96s,87s-86s,76s-75s,65s,54s.

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01-31-2017 , 11:18 AM

#30

jdr0317

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Most of the above hands aren't check raising but are snap betting if the flop checks through, plus AK is likely to be solidly in the middle of villain's range. It's fine to cbet.

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01-31-2017 , 12:13 PM

#31

phunkphish

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Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 2,902

Quote:

Originally Posted by steveistheman84

i'm not saying you have to barrel. but c/c should not be an option with 8 hi.

Sure it can. There are 36combos of 64/86/98. You don't have enough value hands to xr barrel all these bluff candidates. The ace makes things way worse.

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01-31-2017 , 12:31 PM

#32

jdr0317

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Like if we xr turn, we're announcing that we have 2 pair or better. Checking a set or a hand like AT/A7 is missing big value in the long run, so we're really left with saying "I have A5, T7, T5s, 75s", and that's just not a lot of combos. Just 20, if my quick math is right. If we start donk check raising all of our 86, guess how villain will adjust to this.

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01-31-2017 , 04:13 PM

#33

steveistheman84

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,438

you have plenty of pairs to get called down by k hi. + the more draws present gives you more cards to rep with missed draws.

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01-31-2017 , 04:31 PM

#34

jdr0317

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We xr this flop and turn is an A and we check. are we really xr "plenty" of value?

Is our counter strat to barrel this turn card with most of our range and call a raise with a 7? Seems very spewy.

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01-31-2017 , 04:53 PM

#35

steveistheman84

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,438

no just the fact that we're more likely to get payed off light vs Khi or Qhi and we're not forced to forfeit the pot when we have a good draw and miss. he's not likely to raise 88-kk. i just wouldn't ever consider having the equity of an oesd with no possible way of winning ui and not fighting for the pot.

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01-31-2017 , 08:08 PM

#36

jdr0317

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I mean I get that we want to de-polarize ourselves to induce light calldowns from hands that don't think we're as polar as we actually are, but the fact remains that the turn card is not a good one range versus range and that villain has way more strong hands on this card than we do.

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01-31-2017 , 08:10 PM

#37

Montrealcorp

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jdr0317

In that case we might consider checking our entire range ?

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01-31-2017 , 08:50 PM

#38

Bob148

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I like the hand as played.

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01-31-2017 , 09:52 PM

#39

jdr0317

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Montrealcorp

In that case we might consider checking our entire range ?

That misses tons of value.

Edit: typo in my previous post: barreling turn can be justified by trying to induce light calldowns by hands from villain that think we're more polarized than we actually are, not less.

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01-31-2017 , 10:34 PM

#40

Montrealcorp

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jdr0317

I don't see how ?
If the A is such a good card for villain ( for bluff and value), what hands we miss value with.
We do not have a tons of hands that beats an Ace.
Even more so if we have a 3bet range pf.
I mean the range of hands that do not like an A far exceed the ones we do not care.
Mind as well put our few greats hands to strengthen our larger weak and medium hand strength .

Of course, this only apply for the A .

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01-31-2017 , 11:19 PM

#41

jdr0317

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Because villain can raise us when we are ahead and call us with hands that check behind if we check. Are you seriously suggesting not having a betting range on the turn? That's a pretty big mistake IMO. I'd much rather bet/call a 7 on the turn than not have a betting range at all.

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02-01-2017 , 12:05 AM

#42

Montrealcorp

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jdr0317

Fair enough
But for my part, i would rather check all my range than betting some T and checking a 7 on the turn when this is true :

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdr0317

I mean I get that we want to de-polarize ourselves to induce light calldowns from hands that don't think we're as polar as we actually are, but the fact remains that the turn card is not a good one range versus range and that villain has way more strong hands on this card than we do.

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02-01-2017 , 08:32 AM

#43

TEAMTYNEZ

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Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 52

WP....Cr the river if he's as good of a player as you claim

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02-01-2017 , 07:57 PM

#44

DeathDonkey

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I think the hand is played fine. Would consider some alternatives...donk flop is not awful here I think. CR river is something I do too much of but within reason here.

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02-01-2017 , 08:27 PM

#45

jdr0317

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I think xr river really only folds him off a chop. Maybe some weird thin flop xr like K5 could work better as a river xr bluff (less equity to call but more fold equity as we don't block 7x or the middling pairs like JJ, 99, 88).

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02-02-2017 , 05:46 PM

#46

TEAMTYNEZ

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Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 52

I just think ya hand is too good to check fold but not strong enough to check call....and check raising here (against a good thinking player) you might be able to fold out better hands

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02-03-2017 , 12:10 AM

#47

jdr0317

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Since 88 is one of the major hands I'd be targeting to fold out, I'd rather not have an 8 in my hand. Maybe the line should be 76 (technically the same hand but adds 3 more potential value hands to villain's range).

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02-03-2017 , 12:17 AM

#48

TEAMTYNEZ

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Against this opponent are you ever check raising this river as a bluff?

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02-03-2017 , 12:45 AM

#49

jdr0317

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Yup. I think 76/74s are probably enough. Maybe some K5 if I have it.

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02-03-2017 , 12:46 AM

#50

asmitty

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 4,446

I'm not convinced you should have a c/r bluff range on the river, but if you do I think you should construct it from the bottom of your c/c range and this hand seems like a good candidate. Admittedly having an 8 in your hand is not ideal because it means he has only 6 combos of 88 instead of 12, but I don't know how much that matters. (And from his perspective, 88 and 66 are basically the same hand because I don't think he is going to conclude that you are turning your 7x into a bluff on the river, so I don't know that 87 is a materially worse hand to bluff with than 76.)

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