this took 18 posts? really?

SO MUCH THIS:

just asking "really?" is sometimes enough. and that's part of the reason why i'm so friendly and outgoing at the table. sure that's just my personality, but it's also something that ends up with people just telling me what to do and i can save a decent number of bets.

This.

Again, it depends on what you usually do.

If you're the type who's constantly slowing down the game by not paying attention or getting distracted by electronic devices (portable or wall mounted), maybe you need to say something verbally to indicate that this time you're not staring off into space or imagining the waitress naked.

If you're the type who acts quickly and is generally engaged with the game, simply pausing and visibly thinking is sufficient to convey, "Tough decision."

calli that isn't the point though, these guys are generally nice, normal people, when someone asks them a question they think its rude not to answer. If you don't open a dialogue they won't either.

Or they give a fake answer.

I think people who play more than I do may have EV+ at these verbal games; I'm realistic in that I'm willing to concede the verbal game in favor of silence. I probably net give away information trying to solicit or having information solicited from me.

Some people tell me what they have anyway. But everyone knows not to expect anything in return from me.

Don't get me wrong, I'll talk about nearly anything when not in a hand - sports, my job, poker, even my past hands. And when I'm having a conversation with someone who picks up a hand, I'll stop talking to golden-rule them.

Oh how I miss LHE. Now I'm stuck with the NL folks and it's glasses and headphones all day every day.

This isn't a concern when it's the river and you have a call or fold decision.

These snippets match how I feel about LHE betting tells and it why I wrote the original post. Thanks.

I think you probably think that because like JDR says, raises - especially river checkraises - are what they represent in LHE a huge % of the time regardless of anything else.
I mean if there was an Option C, "He pauses for 2-3 seconds and cuts out a raise with neutral authority"...Would anyone not say that's the least likely bluff?

I haven't seen much of the reverse tells you're referring to. What I do see a lot of from "acting strong" guy more than a monster or bluff is a scared 2pair who doesn't want to get 3bet by a better hand [often he will not like his hand that much when called and announce it instead of tabling].

I agree w DD that it's insane how often ppl will just tell you the truth if you only ask them. I also think the friendly way he goes about it is good for the game.

But for this particular hand I think it's a ridiculous question. You just value bet top/top against a player you just sat down with. There is no tell other than him showing me a better hand that's gonna get me to fold for 1 last bet here.

I have a similar philosophy to jonboy. There are players I've played many hours with that I feel comfortable enough altering my decisions based on a tell. But even then, it's usually in the form of slowing down when I otherwise wouldn't (like just calling a raise w/o the nuts when I normally would re-raise, etc.). Btw- I think that's the most reliable tell I see: When a weak player asks, "Did he raise? I re-raise!". You're almost always looking at the nuts.

But it takes a really special player and tell to get me to fold a hand in the upper percentile of my range for 1 more bet. I'm firmly in the camp that considers tells not being worth putting too much effort into in limit games. When you're wrong, it's usually gonna be catastrophic.

Seriously, OP, if 4 saw the flop for a raise, then you bet the flop and turn with only one caller, when villain x/r you on the river you're getting 10:1 to call.

Regardless of reads, you call.

So wrong

The people who say "you get 10:1, you call" are probably also the same ones that say OL 2/4 is too hard to beat.

Really? OL 2/4 seems pretty easy to beat to me, though I haven't played that OL in a long time.

Good for you. You can play with me any time. I need a very specific read to fold any hand I bet for value OTR for one more bet in reasonably big pot.

Trying to get an ad hoc read from an unknown based on HOW he/she counts out raising chips is a waste of time.

If I bet the river because I believe I'm ahead more than half the time I'm called, then I need a very good reason to believe I'm losing 90%+ of the time I'm raised.

Try calling river raises getting 10:1 against live players with one pair. Keep a log. Let us know how that's going for you. If you win even 5% I'd be shocked


And ZOMG_RIGGED's folding advice is not applicable to people who actually can bluff raise rivers. That being said, most live players will never ever bluff this way.

Actually you don't need a very specific read. That fact you got c/r'd in the river in a live game is a pretty sold read in itself. The whole "you have top pair, you just always call the c/r" is terrible advice. Some people you call, against a large percentage of players it's a straight 1 big bet mistake.

Agree. As I've already said in the thread. Has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

You already have one.

And just to be clear we don't even have a board or a hand value besides a pair and you're saying a river c/r's is always a call when you're getting 10:1