I see this play a lot, open limping, at 10-20. I'm trying to think if it's ever a decent play.

Is it ever good, to say limp with JTs, or AA, to mix it up? Maybe about 20% of the time

No

No

I predict this thread will reach 100 posts

No

ill do my best to get it to 100

i'll say yes just to start an argument

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...k5s-hj-452611/

ill say no this is bad just to end an argument

there are def times where open liming is correct. Heres an example thats happened more than a few times (big blind/button states if its limped to him he will raise dark and he's telling the truth, we can limp AA UTG)

To help get to 100 posts, I summon Lawdude to tell us all about preflop DISCIPLINE yet again.

So youd suggest limping JTs or AA in your hand?

no i just wanted to ruffle feathers

you're dull

we need to get to 100 posts

I open limped UTG in an online 30/60 game the other day.

I'm going to break the trend. Not saying I disagree, but not saying I agree either.

Why is open limping EP bad? I see some strong players implement this strategy. The definition of "strong" is upto you guys, but I honestly believe they were strong players.

I think a more interesting discussion is spots where it is correct to over-limp after one other limper. I think a lot of good players have a raise-or-fold mentality after just one other limper, but I think there are a few situations that come up where an over-limp makes sense.

The most obvious example is a full ring game where UTG limps and I am UTG+1 and the table is generally loose passive. I think there are a lot of hands that are not strong enough to raise from that position, but will make money from limping.

Even if the table is not generally loose passive, I don't think over-limping UTG+1 after an UTG limp is egregious. Even good players will limp behind once there are two other limpers (or cold call the guy who raises) so we will still get our many-way pot frequently and worse case scenario, we end up in a 3 way pot with some extra dead money and a good multi-way hand.

A less obvious situation that I think might have merit, although I expect most people will disagree, is when the blinds are super loose pre-flop and I am up against a bad limper and don't have the immediate equity to justify jamming the pot, but believe I can make money with a hand through a combination of position and playing better post-flop.

For example, a bad player limps in latish position, I am on the button, and the big blind is another bad player who defends 100% of his big blinds against a preflop raise. If I have something like 56s, I really don't see a great advantage in raising preflop. Generally, we raise to isolate the limper, but I have no immediate fold equity from the big blind, so there is no isolating going on. I am bloating a pot with a hand that is not going to have an immediate equity advantage. Also, my opponents are players who are going to go too far with the hands they have and I feel like bloating the pot is going to make the kinds of mistakes they make less costly.

It may be difficult to balance a range of hands to limp in this spot, but I think there a quite a few different types of hands you could include (random 3 hands I might add: K3s, J8o, 22) and honestly, the kinds of players that I would be likely to do this against are unlikely to be able to exploit me if my range is slightly unbalanced.

sometimes there are a lot of loose passive players in the game, and you often see unraised, multiway pots. Some hands do well in that kind of scenario.

Either (a) your limping range will be way to narrow and easy to play/read (b) you'll start limping hands that you should raise or (c) you start limping hands you should fold

Then you were wrong.

If there is a poster, i will "open" limp EP.

There are definitely games I can see open limping in early position with stuff like J9s, small suited aces, and small pairs - the typical stuff. The type of game where every pot is going off 5+ ways for 1-4 bets preflop. Raising doesn't really accomplish much but these are profitable hands, especially considering the players in these types of games tend to give up a lot of bets postflop.

I always though over limping was pretty standard

I only OPEN limp when there is a poster or additional blind (such as a kill) and I feel I can get a mass multi-way limped pot due to the table conditions, and I have a hand that wants one (such as 33 or 87 suited).

But in terms of whether it can ever be correct, sure, at your typical 3-6 or 4-8 table where everyone calls and nobody raises, it can definitely be correct to open limp decent but not spectacular suited connectors / 1 gappers and small pairs, and maybe even something like ace-rag suited or jack-eight suited. You are likely to go 6 or 7 ways without a raise with a hand that loves that sort of situation.

If you are playing at a 10-20 table with those table conditions, it can therefore be correct as well. And that's possible! Hustler 25 even occasionally plays that way!

I'm going to attack a) and c). I can't think of an argument for b), so I'll agree with you there. Limping AA is losing too much value just for the sake of balance.

By not doing b), a) becomes more true by this logic. My hand is never AA/KK/AK, etc. It can be attacked and thus it seems like I'm doing c). The argument I want to hear is even with a) being true, can my hand be more +ev than raising or folding? I don't know the answer, but I don't think it's a slam donk no.

As for c), I think your implication is the hands I limp with are now -ev, because there's no strong hands to balance them with and thus they are face up. Again I can't agree with this. How do you know these hands are -ev (and less +ev than raising) just because they fall into a?

I think if any argument should be against open limping, it is that this strategy is hard to implement. It's not hard to get too carried away sometimes.

No it's that it is bad. Poker is a struggle for the blinds (dead $), if there were no blinds there would be no reason to play (games with mega fish excluded cuz who cares what strategy we use there). Open limping is inferior when the only goal is to win the blinds, which when nobody has entered the pot yet is the only goal there is. The rest is just hopes and dreams.