Full ring game. I'm UTG+1 with a red and black kings. I raise. CO/Button calls. One of the blinds also calls. He's an expert.

Flop is J 8 5

I lead the flop, one call, expert C/Rs. I call planning to raise most turns. Remaining player calls.

Turn Q

The blind bets.

What's our plan? Does it change if we have the K?

It's more likely to change depending on which blind he is.

You need to raise the flop to drop the 3rd player asap....

What kind of hand do you put the expert villain in the blind on? If he is a good player it seems he will most often either have you beat, or have a big draw (maybe the big draw is more likely). But if his draw misses on the turn he may not be betting into you again. I think I would also just reraise, and as played I'm not sure I'm raising that turn regardless of whether I have the Kd or not; it looks like one of the worst cards in the deck for hero.

Expert is in the SB.

If we're 3 betting this flop with passengers, then AJ would also be a clear 3-bet?

I think its fine now raise

I don't think has a ton of combos that would C/R the flop and not lead the turn if that makes sense. His range should contain flush draws, two pairs, AJ, maybe KQ, KJ discounted, 10 9, sets.

At game speed, my thinking is this isn't the best card for him either. Overcard, completes a straight, flush draw. I could also have a flush or redraw to flush. I'm not confident he'll 3 bet all flushes or two pair combos if I reraise, but if he three bets me I'm not confident I beat anything without the K

I would delay flop also and would raise this turn even though it does hit a lot of his range. I think he has enough Jx hands to make our raise profitable. If we get 3 bet, I think we might be able to get away with folding non version since we have a lot of stronger hands and hands with a big diamond that will not fold.

I think KK is probably the worst hand I'd raise turn for value with, AQ is probably a call down for me. And I do cbet 100% on the flop in this particular situation, so AQ is in my range.

3 bet this flop against 2 opponents

I probably still raise turn as played

not 3 betting the flop will make the baby jesus cry

in my opinion if you just call flop the 3rd players has amazing odds to see the turn, reraise flop

You guys are all so biased by us having KK, our range here can't support 3 betting flop very often

Nobody is folding the flop with the hands you want to fold out anyways

If we 3b, villain will fold some 8x and 5x. We also want them to fold 66-TT, and any gutshots they might have, particularly if they have diamond and we don't. Villain can also have a hand like Ad7x we don't want to be letting in cheap.

I'm not saying flop 3b is correct, but I don't very much agree with your statement.

Would like know more about this part. I think it depends on the dynamics of the players. If CO is LAG, then his flop flat is pretty weak since he would raise a lot of his pairs. This means SB can raise pretty wide, putting Hero on a wide cbet range and CO on junk. With this dynamic, Hero can and should attack back a lot. If they are both tighter, then we can expect SB to continuation bet turn a high%. In this case, Hero has incentive to 3b to try to free card turn with hands that want to continue for cheaper.

I think you are probably overestimating the value in folding out 2 outers on there flop and underestimating the value of folding out 5-9 outers on the turn.

How's your range look when you don't 3 bet the flop?

You think you're going to fold out a flush draw with a turn raise?

2 outers? C'mon. Every hand I stated has considerable BD equity. If you don't knock out Ad7x now, many turns will keep them around and they get the correct price every street.

We can have some value some crap in our flop 3b range, and also delay some value for the turn.


Ultimately, I would side with 3b'ing the flop. Board is too dynamic to let CO pick up BD straight or flush draws. Whether SB is LAG or straight forward, having a 3b range is so necessary because the CO is a sitting duck. It's almost like implicit collusion. If SB is a LAG, we can raise lighter, and screw up the CO. If SB is straight-forward, we can raise some lighter hands, screw up CO, and free card turn.

Holding the K-diamond, I'd feel less compelled to 3b flop, but still would.

Arent we raising for value precisely for this reason ?
Good draws will not fold the turn anyway but at least you get value now while you can .
Btw if 5 outs call this flop raise 2 cold in the face not closing the action , they do a pretty big mistake right there anyway.
And if they do such a terrible mistake, than we should be way ahead anyway because the have bad hands in first place .
You cant expect them to play bad pf and flop and be great postflop on turn and river imo.

Btw, maybe sb might be stupid enough not to cbet turn when an A hit for example because he got QJ for example ..
Than what ?

I'm never 3betting flop if I have Kd here.

And I'd usually flat the other KK too I think. This is the worst turn. We can't fold because we still beat JT and J9. I'd like to be able to raise here to try to get CO off a GS or 5outer.

I'm just not sure how good that is after such a turn card comes and smashes both our opponents range though. I don't think I can find a fold if i get 3b here because we have solid outs against 2pair and still beat some Qx combos with a draw he might 3b. But overall we are pretty crushed when we get 3b on this turn.

Give me the Kd and i'd snapraise this turn at gamespeed but actually think I may like just calling better too when I step back and think about it. I think raising folds out some middling diamonds from CO that we could have gotten 2 more BB from by just calling. And we are still behind a lot of SB's range despite having 2nd nut FD. I guess that's an OK reason to raise here with our KK without the d. I think i'd be ok with that raise if I can safely fold to the SB's 3b. SB probably can't have a hand we beat that he thinks is a value3b as he has to think AdJx is behind our hand. Does he 3b that anyway?




And we still have the option of betting when checked to on brick rivers to get back some of the potential lost value of a turn raise.


Interesting hand OP. please do post the turn and river action.

Unless expert considers you a donkey that overplays, or weak toght that is foldy, as played I raise/fold the turn, look to check through the river.

Expert blind is likely value betting the flop with a weird 2 pair, or strong draw (no one is folding to his flop raise and he is risking being 3bet...) which gets there on turn.

On turn he is either still ahead or just got there. But I dont trust my reads well enough, but if I have respect, i can only be 3 bet on turn when Im behind. So raise / fold.

Likely chking river if chk2 regardless if 3rd player is still in.

Thoughts?