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Old 07-02-2012, 03:42 PM   #1
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Just draw for our OESD or get aggressive?

Villain (BB) in this hand is a Commerce old-timer, a white guy with colored hair, ~50 y.o. who doesn't play really well (limps preflop, fails to exctract value, etc') but def is not horrible and is experienced.
Loose Passive fish limps in EP, Hero raises KJ in HJ, SB folds, BB and EP call
Flop (3 way, 6.5sb): 88Tr BB check raises, EP folds, Hero calls
Turn (HU, 5.25 bb): Q putting a club FD, BB bets, Hero ?
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Old 07-02-2012, 04:35 PM   #2
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Re: Just draw for our OESD or get aggressive?

would he fold a T to a raise?

if so, that's what I'd do.
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Old 07-02-2012, 04:40 PM   #3
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Re: Just draw for our OESD or get aggressive?

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Originally Posted by armor32 View Post
Villain (BB) in this hand is a Commerce old-timer, a white guy with colored hair, ~50 y.o. who doesn't play really well (limps preflop, fails to exctract value, etc') but def is not horrible and is experienced.
Loose Passive fish limps in EP, Hero raises KJ in HJ, SB folds, BB and EP call
Flop (3 way, 6.5sb): 88Tr BB check raises, EP folds, Hero calls
Turn (HU, 5.25 bb): Q putting a club FD, BB bets, Hero ?
It seems to boil down to what percentage of the time he will fold the turn with a 10 or worse made hand. you don't even lose a ton when he calls with a 10 but you get three bet on this turn a lot too so I'm thinking an answer to your question would involve determining what action he takes with what holding, stoving it and adding up the results. Off the top of my head it feels like a raise because it seems like if you have a semibluff range on turns this hand would be a nice, relatively inexpensive one to make a part of it.
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Old 07-03-2012, 01:12 AM   #4
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Re: Just draw for our OESD or get aggressive?

I like turn raise. Especially if you can get him to fold Tx enough OTR to fire again.
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Old 07-03-2012, 01:37 AM   #5
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Re: Just draw for our OESD or get aggressive?

I don't think anyone folds T here or OTR.
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Old 07-03-2012, 01:52 AM   #6
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Re: Just draw for our OESD or get aggressive?

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I don't think anyone folds T here or OTR.
Then... why would you raise the turn?
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Old 07-03-2012, 02:43 AM   #7
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Re: Just draw for our OESD or get aggressive?

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Then... why would you raise the turn?
I did not. The OP was to make sure it is not a mistake - maybe he would fold small pocket pairs like 33-77 that he would've played like that. I am not sure about that.
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Old 07-03-2012, 08:28 PM   #8
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Re: Just draw for our OESD or get aggressive?

I like a turn raise. You have plenty of equity if he has a T, and who knows he may chuck a better hand. Plays like this cost you almost nothing and make you much tougher to play against.
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Old 07-03-2012, 09:13 PM   #9
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Re: Just draw for our OESD or get aggressive?

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I like a turn raise. You have plenty of equity if he has a T, and who knows he may chuck a better hand. Plays like this cost you almost nothing and make you much tougher to play against.
If called, do you fire river UI ?
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Old 07-03-2012, 11:00 PM   #10
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Re: Just draw for our OESD or get aggressive?

obv
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Old 07-03-2012, 11:13 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armor32 View Post
Villain (BB) in this hand is a Commerce old-timer, a white guy with colored hair, ~50 y.o. who doesn't play really well (limps preflop, fails to exctract value, etc') but def is not horrible and is experienced.
Loose Passive fish limps in EP, Hero raises KJ in HJ, SB folds, BB and EP call
Flop (3 way, 6.5sb): 88Tr BB check raises, EP folds, Hero calls
Turn (HU, 5.25 bb): Q putting a club FD, BB bets, Hero ?
If he doesn't extract value well and he is your basic loose passive recreational player I think we are behind and raising here isn't going to get him to fold at least a ten or sm pp (even though we have 10 to 14 outs to improve) - that's hopeful. I'm probably just calling and cf ui otr.

Btw not to divert here but you were asking about the ******* card in the NC thread? The ace or a nine would be an ******* card for you if villian had A8 or 98 (the nine more so). Just a little digression but I thought I'd point that out - not really worried about it here Lolz ...

Last edited by nonsimplesimon; 07-03-2012 at 11:29 PM.
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Old 07-03-2012, 11:29 PM   #12
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Re: Just draw for our OESD or get aggressive?

You have a huge range here that is made or has good draws: AK, AQ, AJ, AT, KQ, KJ, ...

I'd ordinarily be calling, but I wonder if that is best versus a thinking villain (maybe not this villain) who may have to fold a T.

I'm having a hard time thinking of bluff-raising hands here. Maybe A9?
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Old 07-03-2012, 11:32 PM   #13
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Re: Just draw for our OESD or get aggressive?

If villian is a good player who us capable of hero folds (not sure if those two things go together LOL) then yes but this Guy doesn't seem like one of those players. I dunno is he a showdown monkey? My default would be no but who knows?
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Old 07-03-2012, 11:48 PM   #14
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Re: Just draw for our OESD or get aggressive?

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If called, do you fire river UI ?
Yes. I might check back if the board double pairs because they don't ever fold A hi plus in that spot.

I also don't think someone folding a T is all that unrealistic if the flush draw gets there on the river.
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Old 07-04-2012, 02:27 PM   #15
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Re: Just draw for our OESD or get aggressive?

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I don't think anyone folds T here or OTR.
I would tend to agree. I think we take an exploitable line by never rebluffing in this spot and just try to improve on the river. No one has mentioned the fact raising opens us up to getting 3-bet and putting ourselves in a really ugly situation.

If villain folds Tx, even just some of the time, I think raising is good. I just doubt that's the case.
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