Live Friday morning 20/40. Game is playing pretty relaxingly for me.

Relevant characters:

BB: somewhat maniacal, have seen him three bet CO opens with 93s, UTG opens with A4o, open K6s UTG.

UTG +1: friend of mine who is overlimping an incredibly narrow, well defined range (66-, T9s, 98s, 87s, A7s- is what I'd estimate). Knows I am apt to raise the button with a range wide enough to drive a truck through it after tons of limpers

*Addendum - I'd expect both BB and +1 to fastplay a big flopped hand, as both expect I'd frequently stab flop and check back turn with a reasonably high frequency if I get a lot of callers

UTG +2: Nitty old guy whom I'd expect to limp third in with a lot of the stuff +1 limped with, as well as a lot more stronger stuff that he should be raising with (KJs, 88, etc). The only time we've ever played a big MW pot went like this:

UTG opens, he calls +1, someone else calls, I three bet KK BTN, horrible megafish calls SB, UTG caps we call

A98 UTG bets he calls I call fish calls

Turn 3 UTG bets we call

River 4 checks to me, I tank and bet, everyone folds and this guy calls AJ to scoop it.


Action:

CO posts dead small + BB

UTG fish limps, +1 limps, +2 limps, one more limp. CO checks his post, I raise K 4 BTN, BB calls and everyone else calls

Flop (15 SB): K77r

Everyone checks to me and I bet. BB, +1, and +2 call

Turn (19 SB): 3 putting a flush draw

They check. I check planning to raise most rivers versus BB or +1, and just call most rivers v +2.

I don't understand the river bet in hand 1.

I like checking the turn but's to bluff catch and not raise river.

I'll mention briefly that hand since it's only here to show how +2 plays, but when it checked to me, I assumed no one had an Ace, so I bet in the hope that the megafish would call with worse. Didn't expect someone would check an ace on the river on that board.

But say River is like an offsuit T, aren't we doing quite well against a bet from BB or +1?

i think it's a very easy bet.

I think you should consider allowing only somewhat smaller trucks to drive through your button raise range.

Heh I agree w this

I think my 20/40 winrate shot up years ago when I stopped trying to do anything fancy and just accepted that the vast majority of my opponents were braindead and I could collect all the money by just playing incredibly straightforwardly. Maybe my hand was super transparent to the good players but 95% of my opponents didn't fall into that category.

When I play 20 with 2+2ers they can probably call out my range on every street with incredible accuracy but I seriously just don't care at all. I feel like the large majority of my profits are just from betting top pair over and over again and seeing what people want to call down with.

Also I'm just super confused by the post because it seems like all your villain descriptions are for hand 2 but I can't really tell if you just mixed up the positions or just decided to put all the descriptions before hand 1 for some reason.

limp along pre.

bet turn.

Where is my head? oh yes it asploded.

If you don't raise A4s on button after limpers you are a supernit nit, so how bad can K4s be?

Come on, K4s is nowhere near as good as A4s. Lower top pair, worse flush, no straight potential.

All true, but K4s is still good value to raise. You don't rise A6s?

Personally I would usually just limp along with most suited aces below ATs here, but I don't think raising weaker ones is bad. K4s seems just barely worth a call to me, which is what I would do with it.

I think you leave lots of value on the table. 4 limps and a post? Any suited aces is worth a raise there, any suited King, probably any suited Queen, and almost any suited Jack, any reasonable suited connector, single gap or double gapper and even some triple gappers. You have an equity edge over most of the limpers and position, most of the time you'll get to see the turn for free if you want.

I'm not surprised you disagree. I'm only surprised DD is nitting up the thread too.

so you don't limp along? you just raise any hand you want to play?

I raise most of my suited hands, my bigger pairs and my double Broadway's.

All this ultra-mega-razor thin, and you don't bet the turn?

I think those who want to raise thin here are ignoring the reads.

We have a tight Nit who limps strong hands and a somewhat Maniacal player in the BB. I can see things going bad by raising raising some of the hands suggested here.

I don't know how many times I made a thin raise and then the maniac reraises and then somebody caps because they figured it was gonna get capped anyways. Now we have payed 4 bets with a less than stellar hand and don't even have the initiative.

I like how the one time preflop actually is pretty inconsequential no one is complaining about the preflop discussion.

preflop may be inconsequential, but it's a more interesting discussion than whether or not we should bet the turn imo.

On the bright side, at least I have gotten people to discuss multiway preflop strat.

The limped big hand scenario doesn't seem that dire to me.

PokerCruncher-Advanced-iPhone V.9.1.2

(Equity, Win, Tie)
Player 1: 18.2% 17.3% 1.91% [Ks4s]
Player 2: 27.6% 26.9% 1.66% [AhQh]
Player 3: 14.0% 13.1% 1.91% {99-22, AJs-A2s, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 93s+, 83s+, 73s+, 63s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s, ATo-A2o, KJo-K8o, Q9o+, J9o+, T8o+, 98o, 87o}
Player 4: 14.0% 13.1% 1.95% {99-22, AJs-A2s, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T3s+, 93s+, 83s+, 73s+, 63s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s, ATo-A2o, KJo-K8o, Q9o+, J9o+, T8o+, 98o, 87o}
Player 5: 14.0% 13.1% 1.98% {99-22, AJs-A2s, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T3s+, 93s+, 83s+, 73s+, 63s+, 53s+, 43s, 32s, ATo-A2o, KJo-K8o, Q9o+, J9o+, T8o+, 98o, 87o}
Player 6: 12.2% 11.4% 1.92% {22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 82s+, 72s+, 62s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s, A2o+, K2o+, Q2o+, J2o+, T2o+, 92o+, 82o+, 72o+, 62o+, 52o+, 42o+, 32o}

Board: [? ? ? ? ?]
Deal To: River
Dead Cards: {}

Monte Carlo Simulation: 250000 trials

I get it. I just find it humorous that for all the threads where someone defends 23o against an utg raise then asks what to do on the turn, this is the one where every poster is like "hey you messed up preflop".

The reality is this hand isn't that interesting. I prefer limping along too, but I also think like just don't fold pre and bet the turn and this hand is fine and that's all there is to say about it.

we agree then and all is right with the world.

Think that most people who disagree with preflop play also are willing to say, "but it is pretty close". In the 32o open UTG followed by "let's cap it for deception", the people who like opening nut low are adamant that the criticism is wrong and missing X or Y. The emotion of people on both sides telling each other that they suck at poker if they are in the other camp.

I like this, though there is a strong possibility I would've folded pre after some thought.

I think we'd have to bump up the stakes/opponents level of play a notch or two to deviate from a standard bet on the turn, though I acknowledge you are considering this line as a way of exploiting both villains. I just don't think there's enough upside to deviate from the high frequency play.