At least sometimes it seems like it. Soft live 20 game at foxwoods.

V1 has been playing back at me constantly tonight. Knows I've been raising a fair amount (though I've been showing down strong starting hands almost always). I caught him three betting my UTG raise with Q9s. He also has a fairly significant cold call range, and I have seen him flat a variety of stuff (including some surprisingly strong hands).

V2 is one of the worst players in the pool. Uber loose, passive, and sometimes will just do random crap, especially preflop. Has already cold called raises with AA pre (one where he raise/called IP vs me on 862r, raised 9 turn, and just called my donk on the 2 River when I had QQ [the turn b/c was to b/f a 2, x/r a Q, x/f anything else in protection from FSDR], another where he flopped top set and never raised when a third spade hit turn). Obviously he is uber MUBSy, loves making free card plays IP, and as stated, has an uncapped range pre in spots where he shouldn't.

V3 is an uber loose passive fish. Have reason to suspect he's been limping hands as strong as 99 pre, but can't conclusively prove it. Also does all the standard fish things, like making expert slowplay in obvious spots, missing tons of value, paying off like a slot machine when he's obviously beat. You know the type.

FWIW, all aforementioned players have massive big street MUBS. Raises mean business.

Action:

Fish limps EP, V3 raises MP. I look down at A Q:club; and three bet (though I'm not fist pumping as much as usual). V1 calls two cold after posting CO. V2 cold calls SB. BB folds other two call. Five ways.

Flop (8 BB): K J 2

V2 donks, folds to me and I call, V1 raises, V2 3 bets, I c2c, V1 calls.

Turn (12.5 BB): 2

Gross. V2 bets. I still call as now my lone ace is occasionally good. V1 raises. V2 calls. I tank and fold my nightmare hand.

I would probably be optimistic in this huge pot closing the action and call the turn. That being said, I am detached from the live reads you may be getting and perhaps not fully grasping the true passivity of your opponents.

Assuming I did call and hit either an A or the gutter, I would just call if V2 bet. If v2 checked the river I would donk/fold my Aces up and Donk/cry call my straight.

Fold flop when it gets 3bet back to you.

don't do this. Getting like 11 or 12:1 with a nut draw and a nut backdoor...

Wasn't planning on it. Agreed that folding to the three bet with 3 pure clean cards to the nuts, not to mention all the diamonds being good for my hand is bat****.

I'm also not sure how nitty my turn fold is, but from what I've seen of V2, he may not even reraise Jacks full OTT.

Does he have a bluffing range, because if he thinks J's full is too thin for value and he bluffs something...

He has one street pseudo-bluff/WTF hands (like he'll raise turn with A6 on J 8 6 - 3 IP and check river, or cap AK on J73 to check turn), but his OOP raises almost always mean serious business. He's wicked loose, so I can't even discount 2's full that much.

Moreover, both (as stated before) cold call some weird stuff w/ surprising strength. I think that maybe I should still call turn in massive pot, but I hate calling when I could be drawing dead, or when the T is possibly a screw-you card to someone's FD.

I thought his point was more that even though V2 didn't raise on this turn, his range can include full houses.

T for nut straight and runner runner nut diamond?

Call > Raise > Fold

I don't mind the fold on the turn though.

My main argument for folding the turn myself (and I'm not sure if I'm being too pessimistic in massive pot) is that when I hit my To and it's no good, I often end up paying 3 bets to find out (since there's a 0.000% chance I'm folding to a three bet w/ broadway in massive pot).

I'm sure it's the correct play in the long run.

Anyone okay with raising the flop? I don't mind it as you have T for the nut straight and runner runner diamond + A high. Of course, it becomes a different story if other villains came over the top of you.

Flop raise seems to serve no purpose.

Why not just call when you get there with the T?

In my opinion, failing to call the last bet on the turn to close the action in this spot is a fairly serious error in a pot that has 17 large bets in it already. You would need an extremely rock solid read that one of these players already has a full house and the given reads in the OP are not nearly certain enough. These players are irrational and will show up with hands that will make you scratch your head. It's ok to sometimes be drawing dead in a giant pot. It happens.

V1 posted preflop and c2c but did not cap it. Is he the sort of player that is likely to do this with KK or JJ? If so, perhaps it is just as likely that he has AA here, a hand that you are certainly drawing quite live against.

V2 also called but did not cap it pre. How likely is he to have KK or JJ? Also, he just called the turn raise but did not three bet. Unless he is getting unnecessarily tricky, he does not have a full house.

With this action, there is a very real possibility that V2 just has a hand like KQ or KT and V1 has the KJ, making your fold disasterous since in that case any ace OR ten wins you the pot. This action makes less sense for either player to have trip deuces although if V1 is a habitual free carder perhaps he has a hand like A2 and was going for the free card and now has improved.

Instead of a x/r/c on the river if you catch a ten, why not just lead the river? It should be clear that you are on some sort of draw. If V1 has a hand as weak as AK here it could check through when the ten falls, and even KJ might check it through fearing that you have exactly what you have.

The main point though is that you need to call the turn closing the action.

Every call but the first on each postflop street is pretty gross, but I'd make them. I've never x/r/f when 10 hits in live game before, and I'm not saying for sure we should, but it might be worth considering that we probably want 2 river bets going in on 10 no diamond, but do they ever have anything but a boat when they 3!? Maybe it's a crazy idea, the pot is probably massive enough to warrant a x/r/c. If so, might be better off b/c river.

I think if we make the T on the river we can just call if bet into, collecting the overcall from V2 anyway.

As for up2ng's comments, please note that OP think it's possible for V2 to not raise JJ on this turn, he's pretty MUBSY, so his range is stronger than it appears. Also, we're getting 17:1, but when we aren't good and hit we have 1-3 more bets to lose on the river, not to mention the times we make an Ace and lose another bet.

Confirmed gross.

Tough decisions on multiple streets. Getting 17.5:1, you only need 5.7% equity to continue. You will have 7 outs, 4 outs, and 0 outs all with varying %'s (and not counting times where your outs are dirty or times where your opponents are spazzing). Math is also complicated by extra bets you collect when you make your hand, and extra bets you lose when you improve to a hand that will call the river.

We can simplify the question by modelling something a little simpler. Assuming x%, you have 7 outs, and (100-x)%, you are drawing dead. How sure do you have to be to fold?

If you do the math, I think it's ~75%.

I think there's enough chance that sb has a hand like AK/KJ and the other villain has random spazz hands that include diamonds/2x to offset the times you are drawing dead to continue here.

Folding the turn is a mistake unless you have enough hh with v1 to know he can only have KK or JJ. You are getting 17.5 to 1 and are 11.5 to 1 to spike a T. Not sure why you would call the first turn bet and then fold to a raise unless you have a soul read on v1.

I also agree with mostly everything Up2ng said so if you would like a more detailed explanation you should pay close attention to that post.

Probably can fold the turn facing a bet and players behind with just a gutter on a paired board. As played gotta call the turn closing the action in a huge pot