Nah, I was referring far more to the 'women xyz bad' generalizations, and nothing even remotely in the realm of what you guys have been talking about.

I personally have never had that SO-variance problem, tho I'd imagine that there certainly could be difficulties that arise from the potential socialization issues associated with breadwinning, making more than one's SO, and the potentially large amounts of $$ involved.*

GM- thanks.

There is nothing hysterical/irrational about being worried about your significant other's well being when he is updating you daily. In fact, that is more logical/rational than any other concept I can think of in a relationship - caring for the other.

Check out any book by Deborah Tannen, a female psycholinguist from Georgetown. She talks about the whole process of acclimation and finding a middle ground, which is much more convoluted than it sounds.

Other option is read one of the hundreds of journal articles done in the field.

gl to all in relationships; think surfodoc/leo hit the nail on the head. Everyone is different, find a middle ground, and overall updating someone daily is prob not the best idea.

I update my gf daily because she helps me deal with the torture that is variance. She keeps me grounded when I'm running hot and brings me up when I'm running down. She says it wouldn't be fair to me if I had to deal with it all by myself since my poker playing affects both of our lives.

However, we have a very long relationship, I doubt I would be the same with someone I have only been with a short time. I agree with the "every relationship is different" idea.

Taking the conversation on a different tangent, but this is proof positive why I always say there should only be one gambler max per relationship. When poker players date each other, disaster strikes. They always say it won't, and sometimes it doesn't for a few years, but it always does. Every poker couple I meet says "oh we'll be different," and inevitably they aren't.

You can't have two people going through swings, variance, bad beats, coolers, emotional rollercoasters, and suffering with the undesirables who populate poker rooms (both B&M and online). One can do it, but the other needs to be more stable and grounded to offer the kind of complement that Palomino just illustrated.

So much advice and so many ideas in this thread would, if applied to my relationship, cause global thermonuclear war that I am left only scratching my head and forced to concede "to each his own"

I'm not surprised- for two reasons.

1) I cannot fathom you having an SO that isn't bright enuf to understand variance and the swings that accompany it;

2) AND, would be dumb enuf to challenge your intellect and reasoning regarding the matter in an effort to change your position.

ILR- You're an outlier within the cohort of human intelligence... and I mean that in the fondest way.

No videos but I will say that the conversation doesn't go well. But my learning from past conversations isn't to lie now. Instead of lying about it I ask my wife if she really wants to go down that road to nowhere. Invariably she declines. But in the rare cases where she needs a real answer because she is wearing something to an event where people she cares about are going to be, I give her the unvarnished truth. It sounds like "don't wear those pants" or "maybe those black ones with the crease". Then I shrug my shoulders in a "don't kill the messenger" way and try to survive the rest of the day.

Ironically my mother was the queen of the white lie kingdom. She was doing it to spare my feelings (and anyone else she lied to). It was pathological in the sense that she did it so frequently. Consequently, nothing she said was to be believed and the nature of all of her relationships was not close. As ILR alluded to, lying in this manner is paternalistic/condescending/infantilizing/etc. White lies do not lead to happy marriages any more than huge lies lead to happy marriages.
I have children. And i deal with the good and the bad. I would never tell my son he did awful. I focus on what he did that I was proud of. He is aware of his shortcomings. For example: I went to a dodge ball tournament recently. My son was easily the least talented 8 yr old on his team. He couldn't throw the ball with any force or distance and he refused to try to catch any balls thrown in his direction no matter how anemic. But what he did that astonished me was something no other kid on any other team did or thought of doing. He retrieved balls on his side of the court, carefully evading throws, and delivered them to members of his team who could throw well. He also threw a couple of balls at an opponents legs just as they were firing at one of his teammates (he never actually succeeded in getting anyone out though). So in the end I told him that I was proud of him for thinking up that strategy. And that I was amazed. I told him that his arm strength would improve with time (and he confessed to me that he really couldn't throw well). I also told him we should practice on catching balls so he could eliminate opponents and he was eager to give it a try.

Lies are great until they are exposed. Then they suck. And blunt force trauma may not be any better. I know two men who confessed to their wives that they had affairs and they are both on the express lane to divorce. But the reason that women are better than men at interpersonal relationships has nothing to do with lying. It has to do with the fact that they are much more able to deal with and express their feelings. Which is much easier than lying in the long run.

By the time you find yourself in the position of needing to lie in a relationship I would suggest that it is really too late anyway. Just don't do things that you need to lie about and don't marry somebody who doesn't accept you for who you are.

The worst fights I have with my wife are when she refuses to be accountable for her behavior. She denies doing it. She lies about it. She blames me for making her do it. Then she switches tack and asks me why I would want to be with someone like her. And then when all is said and done, she admits her role in it and apologizes. I wish she could start at the end and avoid the mess. She is getting better at it though.
Are these therapists advising that people lie in their relationships? I would find that astonishing.

My rule of thumb is that if my wife really wants to know something then I tell her.

You still got both thumbs?

Tbh, my gf and I have an agreement that if one of us DOES look fat in those jeans that we tell each other. And it's happened plenty of times on both sides. We usually just say something like "honey, those pants aren't very flattering, why don't you wear these instead? I love how these look on you!" I'd rather her be honest with me than allow me to go out in public with something that looks hideous.

I'm not saying, though, that there aren't times for little white lies.

and for Sweet Little Lies

This is the ****ing best.

My 7 y.o. son is also TERRIBLE at basketball. Probably the 2nd or 3rd worst player on his team. (The worst player only likes to inbound the ball, and he randomly picks a direction of the 360 degrees available and just throws it there, including like the back of the backboard. I think he leads the league in untouched in-bound pass turnovers.)

But anyway, there's one kid on his team that is awesome, literally like a 7 y.o. Jeremy Lin, so my son all of a sudden decided to just start setting moving screens, er I mean picks, for the guy on like every possession to get him open.

I am not as cognizant of the difficulty of articulating points/views online so this will by my last post itt. I'll attempt my best to address some concerns those have with my views.

- I understand your points Mr. Rick. I've heard them and many versions of them before. The act you describe, where you offer positive constructive criticism, also comes as a form of sugar-coating/lying. It is the best method for developing an open relationship and fostering good social skills in children. You didn't explicitly go into his negatives, but you did lead him on in telling him his arm strength would get stronger (which it will, but not to the strength of the other kids who are throwing regularly; therefore he will always be inferior in that category unless he practices daily and to a higher degree than the other kids).

This is no different than lying about poker loses: 1) they both have the informing party, you, deciding beforehand what information the recipient is receiving 2) and you discern that the information you don't deliver, isn't pertinent and actually detrimental to your relationship (i.e. complete honesty)

- It's not just therapists (who usually attain Psy.D./M.A., and see hundreds of clients with similar problems) it's also research doctors (Ph.D. which is a lot of experimental research on steroid hormones epinephrine/glucocorticoids). Stress can be very detrimental. It used to be shut on/shut off for 30 seconds to avoid predators (or in hunting). Similar to the evolutionary development of sweaty palms (used for traction to climb trees), in today's society stress is maladaptive in most cases. Along with the innumerous psychological effects of stress, there are also evidence for tons of negative ones (link).

- Females are better at interpersonal skills for a multitude of reasons. If you listen to one female talk to another, there is usually one is describing a situation, and the other agreeing/consoling her along with the nonverbal cues to go with it. They are better at understanding the ripple effect as well (saying this, may effect this person, which may go to this person, and cause too much stress, so I'll sugar coat it).

Men, on the other hand, impart knowledge. There are times I have called people on my phone I barely talk to for information on a certain event I know they are privy to, get the info, then hang up under a minute. Many females I have met are astounded by this. (link: This book will change your views on women/men on communication)

- I don't expect this view to be popular amongst poker players. They are a unique clique in society: more intelligent on average, coupled with many positive and negative personality traits which gravitates them towards this game. To clarify, I don't utilize some of the methods which I feel are beneficial (re: sometimes I tell my gf the exact numbers I lost). I feel in the grand scheme of things, telling your significant other of your daily loses/wins is more self serving (especially on the losing days), more aimed at the person telling the story gaining sympathy and reassurance of one's skill with a byproduct of strengthening the relationship (but it ends up straining it in most cases). To those who may dispute this, think of it this way: If your wife/significant other comes home and tells you of her horrible day at work, do you just sit there and chalk it up in the loss category? Or do you console her?

- Lastly, I feel some of my views may have come across as negative towards women. If you ask anyone who knows me, they will attest I am the furthest thing away from a bigot/sexist/racist. I regularly donate to the Southern Law Poverty Center (link) for the last 6 years. I applied to work on a LGBT group on campus. I work in a neurocognition lab that is composed of 95% female. In my experience, almost every female I conversed with, including poker players, has stated I am very easy to talk to. This is not to say I am better than some of the posters itt; just to state that my views are not as abstract and awful as some may think, and comes with a background.

I spent far too much time on this thread and wish everyone the best in relationships despite whether your views align with mine.

Back to papers ~

I respect you both for your sense of humor and your success in life.

I have always respected your posts. You are clearly a very smart guy. Most likely a vastly superior poker player than I am. That is why I am having such difficulty understanding where you are coming from.

Offering positive constructive criticism is not sugar coating/lying. Sugar coating is sugar coating. Lying is lying. Offering positive constructive criticism is focusing on a particular aspect of an event or personality in an encouraging and supportive way.

I think you are confusing not brain dumping with lying.

If my son asked me if he was any good at dodgeball I would tell him that dodgeball is not where his skills lie at this time. My hopes are that as he gets older he can do whatever he puts his mind to.

This is absolute bs. There is no basis for your analysis. You don't know me or my son. I had a similar build to my son, very weak upper body, when I was his age. I developed into an excellent athlete. I ended up playing varsity high school basketball at 5' 8" as well as two other varsity sports. I was in no way leading my son on.

Two years ago he got into a game of tag with two of his best friends. They were faster than he was and he couldn't catch up with them. He got upset and then got hysterical to the point where I stopped the game. After a few minutes he calmed down and wanted to play again. Against my better judgement I let him. He promised not to take it so seriously. But again he was unable to catch his friends and refused to allow them to let him tag them. He started getting hysterical again so I stopped it for good. He had a very hard time trying to rationalize what had happened. And in the course of talking about it I told him that the reason he couldn't catch his friends was that they were faster than he was. He didn't want to believe that but he couldn't come up with a better reason. Some time later he asked me if he trained on the treadmill we have in the basement would that make him faster?

I have no doubt that if my son wants to play on an even playing field with his peers that he will do whatever it takes in terms of training. And I would certainly encourage him to do so. But what I won't do is lead him on to think that he is just as talented as others when he clearly isn't.

I think you are confusing "complete honesty" with being truthful. I'm sure we are not as far apart in this as it might seem. There are many things I don't tell my wife. Some of them because she has explicitly told me she can't handle. And other things because I don't think the conversation will go well.

I specifically tell my wife about my poker losses and wins because she has asked to be kept apprised. This has on occasion led to acrimonious conversations in which she has tried to give me poker advice in order to alleviate her feelings. I in turn will tell her that she doesn't know what she is talking about and to please drop it. Which she does. I have no problem standing up for myself emotionally in these conversations. The flip side of it is that for the most part she is extremely supportive of me win or lose. It makes me feel very grateful to have her as my wife and in my down moments I find that she has more faith in me than I do.

Basically what you are talking about is empathy. Women are typically more empathetic than men but it doesn't have to be that way in a marriage. When my wife tells me of her horrible day at work I do my best to empathize and sympathize with her. There are times when I feel threatened by it - when she has done something dumb that could threaten her job and then we have competing feelings at play and things can get dicey. But in these spots I don't sugar coat and I don't lie.

I agree that men are typically more in their heads and less emotionally centered than women. It has taken me many years and much training to change that in my life.

gameoverjc.. well done. You have done enough and hopefully everyone appreciates you taking a more clinical approach to this with data and references. There is a lot of "I don't think you are right because I do it this way" type logic in this thread and the original point was just to give ideas on different ways and let the OP figure it out. It sounds like he has so mission accomplished.

I think the reason the thread is still going is that the people who are willing to tell half-truths or white lies that are completely innocent and absolutely guaranteed to make the relationship so much better just can't fathom doing it any other way. And, those of us being labelled as "liars" are basically making the claim that this is a matter of semantics and pretty much the same as telling your kid what they did well after their performance sucked.

I suppose we all have our own moral code (yay Dexter) and what we think is a real lie and a problem saving innocent white lie. I think it is fun coming up with examples so I will do one more of something I for sure would do. This did not actually happen but stuff like this has.

My wife works overnights and rolls in the door at 7 am on Feb 14. I am blurry eyed after 4 hours of sleep since some huge whale held me hostage online and it took me a few hours longer than expected to break him or his rebuy button was extra shiny. Now as the kids get ready for school and I am trying to get my clothes on but struggling and finally end up downstairs having no idea of course what day it is. My wife kisses them goodbye and as I fumble for my keys and say goodbye she says, "you do know what day it is right? Did you even plan something to celebrate the day we got engaged?" Now, I pause and could say "well, jesus, I am on 4 hours sleep grinding my ass trying to make a better life for this family on my night off from the hospital." The problem is she works harder than I ever will or could...more homework, school projects, dance mom, cleaning, cooking, emotional support, AND works overnights in the hospital making more money than me.

Or I could just smile, in tempo, and say "happy Valentines Day baby. I would marry you all over again. I have made a reservation for dinner and wanted it to be a surprise so sleep well and I'll tell you what I have planned when you wake up." Boom, happiness all around, I make a call to the restaurant after dropping off kids and all is right in the world.

Of course it would be fantastic if I could just say "nope I didn't make any plans but I will" and she would say, "oh honey I didn't realize you were up so late and I really appreciate all your hard work." But, I live in the real world with a real person and that just isn't what happens.

This is fine and you have your approach but what about when he says "dad, am I good, YES or NO"?