Hey guys, not a strategy question, but I got the PJ approval, and medium stakes is the preferred audience since 95% of us play live...

So I have been going out with her for almost 4 years now, and we are finally moving in together middle of December when she gets back from Argentina. She knows I play poker often (probably estimates it at about 60% of what I really do), but if she asks how I did, I always say something about losing $100 or $200 or winning $100 or $200.

She doesn't approve of 'gambling' and while she knows I am a winning player, doesn't like that it adds nothing to society. If I win for a given session, it cheapens her work for the day. I do have a full time job, so that definately lessens the amount of pain there, but it is still there. If I lose for a given session, it is obviously bad as well.

So things are probably going to get serious, and I imagine I will propose in the next 6 months to a year if living together goes well. But before I propose, and probably shortly after she starts living with me, I would like to come clean with how much I can win/lose in a given night. I have all my sessions tracked in Excel for the past 3 years, and have shown a profit every year. I do have some large losses of like $4000+ and wins of the same magnitude that might scare her.

So I know I need to be honest with her, because her finding out from one of my friends who know my activity would be 10x worse (would probably occur on a night of drinking, which would make the fight even worse).

So whats the best way to go about this. I don't want to do it until after xmas and us getting used to living together. But that means I will need to hide my money even better then I do now.

Is coming straight out and explaining it to her that it is a great outlet for my competitive nature, I enjoy it as a hobby, and I make a nice side income from it as well.

Buying her stuff with poker winnings wouldn't convince her of it, since she isn't the material/gold digging type.

So any advice/experiences would be welcomed while I prep myself for the 'talk'. Another wrinkle in it is that I hate working 9 to 5, and she loves her line of work, so I could see eventually me being a stay at home dad who plays poker 20-30 hours a week to make an income as well.

I don't know if it would be a deal breaker if she puts her foot down and says I can't play that much, but it just might be...I enjoy it that much.

I hate to say it, but if she doesn't understand eventually then you are either really bad at explaining stuff, or she is just dumber than a sack of bricks. Every single intelligent person I have talked to about poker was able to understand it fairly quickly. The exception is if she really does have very deep rooted issues against gambling.

FWIW, it doesn't sound like she does. If she says "it's useless for society", it sounds like she is just expressing an opinion, and not like she is taking a life or death stand against gambling.

Also, if your poker BR is separate from your regular assets then it's none of her business if you set it in fire. She shouldn't care. Most winning players can lose their entire net worth and still be way way up in regards to poker. In other words, even if you were to go broke tomorrow, you wouldn't have a reason to regret playing poker in the past.

I'm really surprised you've been able to keep it from her for this long after 4 years. It seems like it would just sort of come out at some point before this.

I don't think I'm qualified to give too good an answer here because I'm not at all in the same situation -- not only does my girlfriend love the fact that I play poker, but she begs to sit behind me when I do and she's started playing 4/8, because she got into it so quickly. I've tried to dissuade her, but if she's gonna play no matter what I say, at least I try to teach her. She always asks how much I won or lost every night, and although that annoys me to no end, I oblige her -- and when it's a big win she says nice job, and when it's a big loss she says "that's ok, you'll win it all back and more because you're a winning player."

So that said, I'm of the opinion that you should come clean as soon as possible, and do it by showing a chart/graph of your winnings. Tell her that every year you've supplemented your income with poker and that the extra money will help the two of you in things like traveling, car payments, insurance, etc., and that you're investing some of your winnings in like a Roth IRA or some crap.

Next, try to get her over the hump of poker=gambling. Try, as patiently as possible, to explain that it's a game where skill trumps luck. It's a sport. Tell her the reason the same 10 guys keep popping up on TV final tables is the same reason the same 10 rednecks keep winning NASCAR races. You get good at it and you win consistently. Tell her if you made a deal where you flipped a coin with her and every time it came up heads you'd pay her a dollar but every time it came up tails she'd pay you a dollar-fifty. She would reply she doesn't like the sound of that, and you tell her that all poker is is putting opponents in a situation where they're forced to take that wager or give up the pot. Tell her these losing nights are the times the coin came up heads, but in the long run it came up tails enough times to pay me back more than my fair share. And that statistically it's impossible for the tails person to ever lose money in the long run.

If she can't digest logic like that, tell her that she shouldn't be worried that poker is all you do since you have a full time job. Remind her that she trusts you and loves you and that you wouldn't be messing around with this money if it was just some silly risk; you respect her and you respect the value of money too much for that. Remind her you never "gamble" with it -- you never play blackjack (you don't, right?), craps, or bet on sports. You don't take wagers where you have the worst of it. You're smart and you have months upon months of data to prove it.

If she can't accept that, then you're screwed. But I hope she's cool enough that she doesn't force you to choose between her and poker.

Thanks for the good post PJ. I only 'gamble' when I go to Vegas, and that is 2-3 times a year, and the majority is still poker. The reason I have been able to 'keep' it from her is because I only started playing 20/40 regularly in June, and she left for Argentina in August. Before that, my main game was 8/16, in which I brought 600 or 800 to the casino, and a "win or loss" of 100 or 200 was a lot closer to realistic. With my shots at 40/80 and 30/60 in Vegas, the thousands are a lot more realistic, and when an average day at a real job is 200-300 for both of us, it will appear excessive. I have no doubts she will accept that I am a winning player, I don't think I put enough emphasis on the 'gambling' productive part of society part of the equation. When I bitch about not enjoying going to work every day, she jokingly tells me to quit and play poker, but I know it is a bluff, and decline and appease her everyime.

if winning or losing $100-200 is a deal breaker for you or her than you have no sort of relationship worth taking seriously in the first place.

It's probably more important that you not associate with people for whom you need to plan strategies to justify your existence. Four years is a long time but you have a lot more to go.

-Michael

i don't know if this is as much the case as sometimes people just aren't compatible.

my personal opinion, you need to sack up and come clean pronto. do it BEFORE you guys move in, as that will just make the situation more difficult when it comes to a head. i'm 32, but i've known alot of women in my days and there is one common characteristic that most any female of reasonable intelligence, self-esteem, and self-respect has in common: they hate to be lied to. i think if you sit down with her, explain the situation, and deal with it in a straightforward honest manner you are going to come out ahead in the long run. let here make the decision for herself whether or not she wants to be with you. hiding the truth from her is going to set a precedent that could infiltrate the core of your relationship and make here skeptical about EVERYTHING you say. in other words she won't be able to trust you, and a relationship without trust isn't a relationship worth having anyway.

sit her down(or take her to a really nice dinner), and ease here into the fact that you deal with more dollar volume than you have indicated to her in the past. a little tip, if you don't have a problem with white lies(which given your situation you don't seem to ) tell here that you've recently began playing higher stakes or something. even doing this is dangerous, however, because as i said before females cherish trust(rightly so IMO) in a serious relationship above most anything else. if she finds out you weren't completely truthful with her, it could cause some serious damage later.

if you really care for her, do what's best for you both. come clean. if she gives you an ultimatum you have a decision to make. if she's someone you plan on making your wife, examine your priorities. if your own needs/wants are more important to your fulfillment than she is, then it eventually wasn't going to work anyway. plus, she might surprise you. you never know. good luck.

Do you have friends at the casino you play at? Are there nice restaurants?

My girl quickly changed her mind about me going away when I took her to the Borgata and introduced her around and went to a nice dinner. She understood that it wasn't just a place for low lifes and bums and that there were plenty of people like me who've become friends.

Seriously though, I agree with James and that you should just come out and tell her the truth about everything. She'l be more excited with your big wins and eventually come to understand the bad times.

(this pertains to my girl so it may not pertain to yours)
Honestly, my girlfriend could care less about how much I make/lose, she does however love to hear stories about the players and different people I've met. It makes it more real and a lot more interesting to her. So try that route.

I wish you both the best in solving this.

Totally agreed w/Jkamowitz. I took my g/f to vegas when she didn't know anything about gambling. Once she saw the inside of the bellagio and all the nice restaurants, I was home free. It also might help if you make a gangsta roll of your last months winnings. Then drop in the middle of the table when you having the conversation. It really helps drive home the point that this is your job and not just some hobby.

Agree that honesty is the way to go here for you.

We have a friend who got married years ago and found out(a few months after they were married)about the several enormous credit card balances that her husband had. She wan't too happy at all. Not good to hide anything like that. It can create huge problems later on.

As for your poker money, as long as you are keeping it completely seperate from your other $ that is good. I keep my poker roll completely seperate and I explained that to my wife. For my sessions I tell her how it went but she doesn't feel the need to ask me the exact amount I won or lost every time. If she asks I tell her. It also helped that I was able to play this year and use some of my profits on things like a hotel room or two, a new ring for my wife and I subsidized my 8 yr olds birthday party with some winnings . We sat down and talked and I told her that I really genuinely felt like I could do this for some income supplement. She sees me studying and talking about hands with buds here etc. so she knows that I am serious about it. She also sees that it does not consume my life and I balance out my various activities which is also important. You can also tell her how important it is to have her own indivdual activities to enjoy.

Good luck

I'll be your friend. Just let me know ahead of time and I'll clean up before you bring her.

I'm also in accord w/ the others here: You have to tell her straight up exactly what you are doing, no holding back. There is no use trying to whitewash it or lie or make it seem different than what it is. I'd tell her everything and let her see it for herself by sitting behind you a few times. At least that won't be as boring as sitting behind me. I want to say it again: Be completely honest. So far I've seen 3 marriages break up over poker. I'd like to avoid a 4th.

Frankly, there's very little you can do, my friend. If she doesn't understand the basic math of poker, then all you say will go in one ear and out the other. Some people don't get it, like congressmen or my mother. They will always equate gambling with luck.

My ex was bipolar, and when she sat in front of a slot machine, she was playing until it was gone. Yet, she hated my playing poker and couldn't believe I wasn't just getting lucky. She never got comfortable, and we split, although more the bipolar part than the poker part.

My only advice is never surrender your penis. If she owns it, she'll own everything else. It sounds as if you might already be in negotitiations for a Neville Chamberlain peace accord. Man up, or lose it. No other way to put it.

CJ

You're an idiot for lying to her for so long. The best thing to do, as others have already said, is to be open about it. Starting the conversation with "Honey, I've been misleading you for years about how much I gamble with, but you should know before we move in" is problematic, but it would be completely unnecessary if you hadn't lied for so long anyway. And if you wait until the stakes are higher (you've moved in together, you're engaged, etc) it's only a recipe for a bigger disaster.

Good luck, dummy.

I have a pretty good deal of experience in this department and it sounds like a similar situation to where I was a few years ago. I think some people underestimate how hard it is to convince people that what we do isn't the same type of gambling as the gambling that was done by their uncle Charlie who lost the family retirement at some sleezy casino in Reno one week. I think those saying that is a measure of you girl's intelligence are dead wrong. That has nothing to do with it. As far as what you want to tell her, it really does depend on what your goals are in life and with her.

If you are going to keep a full time job and only play poker on the side as a hobby for extra income and entertainment then I don't really think it matters if you tell her about the daily swings as long as you are a winning player. If you have a seperate roll and this money has nothing to do with her or the monthly expenses then it will be fine. For a while I just cut my win/loss by one zero and reported that number and it worked just fine. In fact, I still don't see any need to report the huge losses. It accomplishes very little. In fact, I think it is better to train them not to even ask when you come home from a session. It actually works out well. Sometimes I don't even know myself which is awesome and akin to playing online with a tilt blocker. I just think it is unhealthy and unwise to update the sig other on a a daily basis. They aren't trained the way we are to handle the emotional swings associated with daily variance. I still only update my wife on a monthly basis. This is basically inevitable since I have to have some justification for ramping down my hours at the regular job and buying all kinds of stuff with winnings will really be the only possible way that I can keep playing a lot.

However, there are many caveats. How you spend your time after a 9-5 day will become a big issue. If you head to the casino 4 nights a week this is going to start wearing her down, especially if there are kids. Therefore, if you plan to play a lot of poker, or use it as a primary source of income, you will need to tell her why you are going there so often and share your results. For a while I was only playing on my own time and it gets pretty easy for them to lock you down if you are just playing for fun. This is even more true after kids arrive. If you can show that the income has a positive impact on your life then the pain or annoyance of you being gone will start to melt away and if you are really lucky you may get encouraged to go play. This is seemingly pretty rare even with my friends who are full time pros.

My advice is to take this slow. You are mostly hearing advice from the younger crowd who are pushing the "come clean" line. Now, don't get me wrong. I am not advocating lying to her directly. I just think that drawing a line in the sand before she is ready is a good way to wreck a relationship. In general, most of us have a good deal of issues. The women are certainly no different. Just give it some time to develop and understand that it will come with patience. Good luck.

It works both ways. If she gives pope an ultimatum then it shows that her petty prejudices are more important to her than he is, and it wasn't going to work anyway.