I raise A Q after 3 limpers in a live bay 101 20/40 game. Flop goes off 5 ways, as the BB has come along for the ride. He is completely unknown to me, but is young, skinny, and some varietal of "not white".

Q 8 2

They all check to me and I bet. BB raises next in and the other 3 fold. I 3-bet and he calls.

5

He donks, and I hit him again. He calls. We now have a 12 big bet pot heads up.

J

He checks, and I assume I've gotta bet here....but honestly, how much value can there be in it, given that I'm not folding to a raise.

I get shown all sorts of wack-a-doodle hands. Easy bet, imo.

lots, imo.

He's got to call with pretty much any reasonable made hand since the pot is so big and you are unknown to him. If he's a nit, he'll just call with almost anything but the nuts (and a nit won't have 9T here). If he's laggy then you are good way too often to check, even if you pay 2 BB sometimes when you are behind.

I'd call down the turn donk

+1. I'd much rather see showdown and have a chance to raise a flush river. Cause he'll call down with nearly everything that beats you and fold nearly everything that doesn't.

I do not raise the donk on the turn. And certain extremely nitty players only c/r on the flop with two pair or better in this spot, and I wouldnt even 3-bet those players on the flop, I would just call down.

flop is a spot where i prefer to call the c/r and put in a turn raise. BB's line represents some sort of medium to strong made hand looking for protection. Strong draws are not possible and its unlikely he'll play a weak draw like this. Against this type of range, I expect him to almost always bet the turn and I also expect him to shift to calldown mode after any further aggression from Hero. Therefore, I like to cash in my raise on a big street.

The turn donk makes Q8 seem like a large part of his range. I can't really make up a hand that picks up a flush draw on the turn unless you are seen as really out of line and he has Kd8d...or like 9d8d.

gaming_bison,

Now that we've already raised the turn and he just called, do you bet the river or check behind?

i call the flop and raise the turn, but i never three-bet flops HU in position anymore. guess its a stylistic thing; given that i rarely three bet flops in position with draws, it follows that i shouldnt do it with my made hands either, lest i give up way too much information.

also fwiw against some players i call flop and turn and raise (ie pwn) the river.

edit: also, bet the river. turn raise makes little sense otherwise (your turned FD is irrelevant). sure you now lose to QJo but you still beat all other Qx.

I'm in the 'call the flop and raise the turn' camp. As played I prefer calling down from the turn donk. b/3b on the flop should make it clear to bb that you have a big pair. If he's donking the turn anyway I'd rather get to a cheap showdown and get some info on how he plays.

As played I'd bet the river against an unknown because villains range includes hands we beat like KQ, QT, Q9. If villain has Q8, QJ, Q5, 82, or a weakly played set then good for him and I'll remember that next hand I play with him.

warrants no respect. probably bad. donks in dumb spots because he plays NL and that's what people do in NL

high levels of testosterone. doesn't understand the value of money because people tip him 25% for taking orders and delivering food.

plays too aggro because he doesn't like to get pushed around

more likely gamble for fun, gambling culture, etc...


This hand really depends on the opponent. However, given my new improved read, I think you played it well. I think you're right that the river is a very close decision. That's because he's going to fold a lot and have two pair a lot.

I expect him to: fold 60%, call but you win 22%, call and you lose 15%, he c/r you fold 3%

We don't know this guy, but what we do know about him seems to be non-nitty.

really close imo. prolly check behind tho because if you bet you should fold but i really want to see a sd vs this unknown who, as brick points out, is prolly capable of a move.

Against everyone? On all boards with all hands? Tons of live players with c/r a flop then c/c the turn especially if it's a scare card. I couldn't imagine slowing down with a hand like T9 on QJ8 2 tone where there are a bunch of turn cards that will kill action against some MUBSY nit.


As for the hand I do think this is a better spot to wait for the turn because the board is so dry. And I'd raise the turn again as he'll have Qx here a ton and we still beat most of them (and I'd be raising black AQ here too, flush draw barely factors in). And the J doesn't change enough on the river to push this to a check. Be prepared to vomit if he raises IMO.

Super standard on every street, including a river bet. I really hate life if he c/r the river.

Really? I see Q8 cap this flop often. And if it doesnt, it is trying to c/r the turn. IMO, this is Qx that doesnt want to let a flush draw take a free card on the turn.

I feel like I get checked to a lot.

How on God's green Earth does he put me on a flush draw on the turn? The flop was Q82 rainbow....You really think he was like "I'm gonna check raise the turn" but then decided not to because the turn wasn't specifically a ?

Now that I know who villain is, I feel pretty good about value-betting river.

Even not knowing villain, I think river is usually a pretty good value bet. 'Cause people just don't donk two pair on the turn like that.

(my attempt to work on hand reading)

i feel like b/c flop and then raise turn is the best line, for reasons stated in other posts. position is your friend in this hand, and while i'm tempted to say you're putting in too much action with AQ, his c/r range includes a lot of worse queens and lower queens down to 8x. he never has a set--he doesn't cap, he doesn't b/3b the turn, etc. the question is what he does have.

villain's turn donk does not strike me as 2 pair. for one, i think he c/r's a lot of 2 pair hands on the turn, since you have taken a very strong line until this point and he should fully expect you to bet. i also think there is not a 2 pair hand that makes sense except for Q8 and even that i would hope he folds preflop. this is more often one of two hands:
a) a spazzily played queen that doesn't feel strong enough to cap the flop or c/r the turn but feels like it needs to get a bet in on the turn, or feels like making a move.
b) a hand like Td8d, 9d8d, or 7d8d which had a pair and a BDFD on the flop. the turn gives them a flush draw, maybe even a straight+flush draw, and they feel like betting the turn as some kind of a semibluff.

this is a value bet on the river because you have top pair top kicker and you can identify several hands (all 3 of the combo draws plus Q9/QT/KQ) that you beat. if you get checkraised, just fold and move on. i know that the pot is big and you want to see a showdown but he would have to be insane to pull that line with a worse hand than TPTK.

you should play in the bellagio 30 where I has two pair now I donk is standard fish line.