DD, how would you play AK in this spot? Probablly exactly the same at least a good amount of the time, right? (going for a screw play on the turn.)

I probably just bet the turn, I can't really think of a hand that is good to CR flop and CR turn here, its just not a "standard" line, I could only imagine doing it very exploitatively

I hate going for a screwplay with this hand; it's far too strong on this board texture.

I'd only do it with a specific read that he'll never raise a pocket pair but will bet/call when checked to with it.

PRE:

If you raise every combo of 9Ts, 9Js, 9Qs... that's too wide.
Or if you raise every combo of 9Ts, TJs, JQs, it's reasonable assuming others suck and you are awesome. Add in 9Js, TQs, TKs, and you're pushing it.

FLOP:

If villain is snug, or always calls down AQ, then 9Ts is an easy x/f. Else, x/c 9Ts is awful, and x/r is much preferable.

TURN:

I think most live players will be very predictable after the K pairs. They will generally call down AQ UI (i.e. everything), and bet/raise trips+. If we check turn, villains will never turn the bottom of their range (i.e. AQ) into bluffs. Make a plan to exploit this. Namely, give up on all bluffs and barrel all value.

I'm torn on the JJ turn check, but I am leaning towards agreeing with you that its good. However, when thinking about it Im confused as to what actions you may take. It seems from above that you are just check folding the turn 100% when you check i guess?

I know that I'm not comfortable opening this wide utg if 10 people are dealt into the hand. Now if 2 or 3 guys are away at dinner and it's playing slightly shorter it starts to make more sense to me. However, I do know that some highly successful players tend to open pretty wide in early position so it's not that outrageous. About the tightest range that I can come up with that includes T9s would be something like: 66+, A7s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, ATo+, KJo+. That would be about 14% of all hands.

Based on this, if other players in the game are regulars and are familiar with DD's opening ranges, I think the slightly looser "perceived" 3 bet ranges do become more correct. Against the above opening range, it seems to me that a solid but aggressive player could safely 3 bet with something like: 77+, ATs+, KQs, AJo+.

Now some questions for OP:

Based on these asymmetric preflop ranges, what percentage of your hands do you think that you should be check / folding on this flop?

How many combos of your value hands do you think is appropriate to checkraise this flop with (assuming you do not delay any strong hands)? For example, in my ranges above, TT is still slightly behind on the flop. With your perceived ranges it might be slightly different, but not by much.

Based on the above questions, how many combos of bluff hands do you think is appropriate to checkraise this flop with given the size of the pot?

It is my understanding that we should consider bluffing with the top of our folding range on the early streets since we could back into slightly stronger hands. As has already been suggested, it seems like the best candidate would be QJs with a bdfd, which is 3 combos. Unless you will be peeling with that hand? But I have a feeling if we peel with that hand we are just not folding enough hands. Heck, even QJs might be too low -- we might want to consider turning hands like A8s and A9s with bdfd into bluffs here?

I do think that checking (and giving up) on this particular turn card is interesting. It is my understanding that we should be giving up on some small fraction of our bluffs on every street, and perhaps giving up on any of the 3 remaining kings left in the deck gives us the right frequency?

Looking forward to your responses.

Yeah I mean I'm not saying that is a good thing but its probably accurate. I can't think of any hands I would play that way aside from some wild bluff that I've given up on

His range is much stronger than yours. You are supposed fold something on the flop. T9s falls squarely into that part of your range.

I think the fact that 3 pages were written after post number 2 is why limit holdem is still a profitable game.

I think 10Js makes the thread as DD stated.

I think if you're worried about your flop checkraise range being too heavily weighted toward value on the K73 flop you might want to consider waiting until the turn to raise with AK plus.

I think that when you checkraise this flop only with AK plus only that people should be wary of calling you down with JJ.

I think if you only checkraise this flop only with AK plus people will call you down with JJ.

both played it great, assuming T9s checkraised the flop for the right reasons

Player A plays bad.

no u

Was the player B playing very tight? Maybe player A had a read on the Player B. Player A's flop C/R would work to get weak player's AQ, AJs, ATs to fold on this K high flop. The turn was obviously a bad for card for player A to cbet.

On the river, he is just value betting.

I think player B plays a bit weak given that he didn't bet this turn. I think it's a clear bet/fold for player B on the turn.

I think bet/folding this turn vs DD is the worst option.

I think betting this particular turn is mostly to induce bluffs, and if you bet as player B you have to call down, because wtf hands is the Donkey playing this way?

Which hands is DD cr the flop with? Certainly not naked ace highs, because that has to be pretty bad. So his range is basically pairs 7+ (I assume he is c/c with smaller pairs), and the random Q-high through T- high bluffs. So you are ahead of 7x 88, 99, TT, and behing QQ, AA, and importantly all of his Kx combos, which are the single most plentiful hand left in his range.

The hands you are ahead of have three outs at most, so player B isn't sacrificing a whole lot letting DD see a free river card.

I like player b's turn check. From B's perspective it looks like A is either giving up with air or is looking to checkraise the turn again. I'm assuming that these two players are somewhat new to each other. If not, then A's line could mean something completely different which might make betting better.

For player A, preflop is ok although I would usually fold this. I guess I'm trying to think about what player A was thinking in this hand. I guess he checkraised the flop looking to put pressure on AQ, Aj, AT, 66, 55 type of hands knowing he had two backdoor draws that could improve to a flush draw or straight draw on the turn which he could fire again? But when he is called on the flop and the king pairs he feels he will get called Down too often now and decides to give up? I think it is an interesting play, and I would have to know more about player b, but I think usually player b's three betting range is probably too tight to make this line profitable.

hey chris,

don't AQ and similar want you to fold? just by good old fashioned 2005 free card hate?

unless you have a proper mix of c/r monsters and double c/r bluffs on this turn (and it sounds like you're saying you don't, maybe i misunderstand?) i think he has an easy b/f here.

Well I agree w that but player B had JJ not AQ

So when player B bets, player B should only have the worst hands in player Bs range. Seems problematic.

I could say it's problematic for A to never call after checking turn too. But that's what was happening here. I feel like we are bouncing between arguing theoretical points vs exploitative ones.

I feel like you xr the flop to be balanced then you are arguing player B should exploit you on the turn? Personally I would not be playing exploitively vs you very much at all.

sorry that was confusing, since i was thinking about his whole range when i wrote that. i'm saying the same thing as OTR i think. he should b/cd JJ and b/f stuff like AQ. but he can't start exploitively picking and choosing vs a good player like you.

it may be in this particular case you don't have the right turn xr mix and it's a good exploitation, but i wouldn't be counting on that. it may be that you should have kept barrelling the turn, it may be you shouldn't be bluffing with that hand to begine with. there are a number of things that aren't 100% obvious to me here about what a balanced strategy looks like.

yet it seems pretty unlikely to me that we're looking at the play of two balanced strategies in this hand. especially re: B's turn check.

grunching but wow is that turn check bad. Yikes bad. woof.

Well yeah I def agree with that!

Who's?

t9's. Jacks i think is preferable.

Preflop is "close". What does "close" mean? It means that this hand is probably 0 ev. Unless, of course, you are going to **** it up postflop in which case it is going to become -ev.

Check/raising this flop is less than ideal, but if you're going to do it you absolutely must follow through and bet the turn, especially when the K pairs. Not betting the turn turns the pre flop and flop actions from "close" to "bad".