Commerce 40. UTG is an unknown Asian player, ~45 y.o. who is not a frequent reg as far as I know, just by looking at him he doesn't seem to be a degen but you never can be sure.
UTG opens, a LP fish cc in MP, SB folds, hero 3! red JJ in BB, UTG and MP call
Flop (3 ways, 9.5sb): AT9o hero c-bets, UTG calls, MP folds
Turn (HU, 5.5bb): K putting a club FD, hero checks (would bet folding be better?), UTG says "I have pocket kings" and bets, hero ?

as played, fold.

In the heat of the action, I'd probably bet/f the turn and then c/f the river unless we spiked a Q or J.

this was my plan before the speech... I guess the reason I posted this is to check if you guys think that the speech should in any way make me reconsider it.

Fold without the speech. Fold faster after the speech.

Fold even if he doesnt have pocket kings?

no matter what he says that card crushes you and you're now drawing to four outs for the str8 plus two for the set which - as he said, you could be drawing dead to and/or the J could be an ******* card for you if it makes him a str8. Plus he could have some of your outs already with KQ, AQ and maybe even QJ which you're drawing to a chop but this holding is unlikely perhaps. You're only really ahead of QT and 88 and 89 which is not really (except 88) in his utg opening range.

I think we can fold here although I don't know if I'm good enough to do it at game speed.

I think maybe I would talk back at him. Ask him if he's "sure" ... ask him if he'll show if you fold. If he says no then you say: "so you want me to call?" "yes" "why would I call if you have a set of KK?" etc - get an lol conversation going - sometimes those are fun and they're meaningless at gamespeed if we already made the decision to fold already.

This isn't NL, and even in NL that kind of table talk during a hand is never fun for the rest of the table. Your edge in LHE is applied over the number of hands you actually play. Set a good example, keep the game fast and enjoyable for everyone, by never wasting the tables time during hands.

Bet/fold makes Jesse sad as you'll be getting 8.5:1 and have a pair and a gut. But yeah I'd c/f turn if I was playing well.

Well if its angle shooting yes I agree but its not. I'm genuinely trying to get some info and if a little bit of info can be gained from this its well worth it and the other "cats" at the table will appreciate it too. I used this technique a week or so ago and the villian read me as genuine and he did show a bluff where if I had just mucked he would've mucked behind. This info proved to be valuable imo and the table appreciated it I'm sure. I do understand what you're saying that unnecessary talk during a hand is lame.and slows the game.down too - but there's a time.and a place.

Re: the speech (pretty clear fold as played), and I've been playing live LHE 20-40 and up since 2001, FWIW-

The OVERWHELMING majority of the time someone says something like this, they either-
a) have exactly what they say they have, or-
b) have a hand that LOSES to what they say they have, but is pretty close. They have a hand that basically crushes any hand that would look them up (in this example, I think a lot of people who would otherwise fold TP, not saying that's right btw, would call down b/c of the speech). So UTG may have A10, for example. He's not showing up with one pair here.

Leon

Players choose to play LHE instead of NL for a reason. Perhaps the biggest reason is the pace of the game, and the lack of in hand "twenty questions" routines is a big reason for that.

The information you gain from this patter is usually marginal, but if your example leads the regulars to start emulating you and slowing hands down regularly, you'll lose not just hands, but players. The entire game gets worse for everyone just so you can get a little more information that often should already have been obvious to you.

In my game, if you quiz your opponents in hands, I won't tolerate it long, and I will remind you that its LHE, not NL, and if you persist I'll publicly remind the table every single time and tell your opponent to ignore your questions. I may even start calling the clock on you. Why would I do these things?

There are many ways to make your play better, more effective, that make your regular games worse. NL is a great example of that. There are players who think if they can tilt their opponents it gives them an edge, and it probably does. It also gives their opponents another reason not to come back and play, ever.

In my game if you pay attention you can have a nice edge in kill pots, since often players don't notice the kill is out and raise with 8 chips instead of 12, and if they didn't announce "raise", call "string" so you can see the flop cheap. If it's a new player to the pool, they'll feel cheated when they lose that hand, and it might help prevent them from ever becoming regulars, but hey, you found another "edge".

I don't do that. I tell the player "12 chips for a raise" and hold my action so they can complete theirs. If a dealer tries to enforce the rule without a player calling it, I chide the dealer. If a player calls "string" I chide them.

The pool is small enough for the bigger mix games that the best regs serve almost as "hosts". They have the time pot ready when the dealer sits, they help the dealer get their first hand out quickly by pointing out who has to post, who is sitting out, what the game is, etc. They do this to keep the game moving as fast as possible, because they know their edge is bigger the more hands we play, and the game is more enjoyable for their customers the faster it goes.

They also read the board and tabled hands to make sure mistakes aren't made, that pots are split properly, that players don't accidentally throw an extra chip in their bet, etc, everything possible to ensure the game is run fairly. Because they already have a nice edge, they don't need to make it bigger, they just need to make sure the game runs and it's enjoyable for their customers.

The bigger mix games run because of customers. Customers love playing with the best "host" regs, they know they'll never be cheated, that their interests are protected, that the games are always fun. They'll exchange numbers, tell the regs when they'll be next in, and the reg will make sure there are enough players to get the game going, and that the game has the customers favorite games.

If you can learn to play well, you don't need to find small edges by pissing in the pool. Instead treat your regular games like a garden, and cultivate them to be as fair, and enjoyable for your customers as possible, so more games run more often with worse players because everyone has such a good time and no one gets angled or treated poorly.

A couple days ago I won the high side of a big 12-24 Omaha8 kill pot, just as I was called to my regular game. Two other players (one unknown to me) split the low, and the dealer says, pull your river bet back, I'll split the pot in the middle. I say "what?", and she realizes that's wrong, and tells the other two players they owe me $18 each. It still doesn't sound right, but I'm racking to go to the 20 game and have to hurry away.

At the 20 I realized I owed them $12 each, so I take it out of my rack and walk all the way back to the other side of the room, and explain it correctly to the two players. The dealer argues with me, says I'm wrong, she did it right. I ignore her and just pay them.

I play the 8-16 O8 regularly when I'm waiting for the 20 or the 40. Do you see the edge I gained there?

Speech reminds me of a fun hand I played a while ago. 75 o8 and I 3 bet pf. Sb calls (he likes to gamble with me and we have fun playing). Flop is 2s 4s Kx. He leads and I raise, he says what do you have, I say A35K and nut flush draw. Turn is a 6, he leads and I raise and tell him I have A35K and nut flush draw. River is a spade, he leads and I raise, show AK35 and nut flush to scoop.

great stuff, DC.

Nice post DC. It is sad how few winning regs understand any of these things.