Kind of a stupid spot, probably doesn't come up often enough to matter but one of those spots where I really want to fold but never do. Thoughts on all streets.

75 holdem, something like 7-8 handed. UTG limps with what you would expect a "standard UTG limping range" to contain, small PP, suited connectors, and hands as strong as JQs, AJ. We raise 99 in EP and reg calls in sb (pretty wide range and hands like Q3s and K3s are certainly in there) and bb folds.

Flop: 333, sb checks, UTG bets, I raise, sb calls 2 cold and UTG calls.
Turn: 5... Sb leads, UTG calls, we call???
River: 5.... Sb leads UTG calls, we....

Does our decions change if we have QQ-AA at all?

what a ****ty spot.

I'd call and hope both players are flipping over smaller pp's. Do you think sb can take this line with hands like 22/44/66-88?

Also, what does sb do with 99+? (Does he have a capping range preflop?)

You'll effectively need to call 2BB to win 10 against 2 players, so you'll need to be good 20% of the time. Seems favorable to us:

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation

7,549,920 trials (Exhaustive)

board: 3335

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
99	40.97%	2,976,768	233,280
22, 44, 55-JJ, Kx3x, Ax3x, Qx3x, 4x3x, 5x3x, 2x3x	40.24%	2,968,416	139,680
22, 44, 55-TT	18.79%	1,348,416	139,680

But I'm guessing you don't think sb leads the turn with a lot of his smaller pairs. If I remove 18 combos of smaller pairs from sb's range (22/44/66), you still have a marginally profitable calldown:

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation

5,009,760 trials (Exhaustive)

board: 3335

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
99	26.59%	1,250,496	163,008
55, 77-JJ, Kx3x, Ax3x, Qx3x, 4x3x, 5x3x, 2x3x	59.15%	2,893,536	139,680
22, 44, 55-TT	14.26%	679,680	69,408

I'd just raise fold the turn

Seems results oriented. We can also draw out against 55 with 3 outs (lol river 3). I'd mostly think you're WA/WB, but can sb turn up with Ax on the turn?

Well obviously you can't fold anywhere. I think you should maybe add a slow played KK/AA to SB's range unless you think he'd always fast play those preflop. The donk on the turn makes me think there's a good chance he has quads or 55. If he had a hand like 66 and is the type of player who would coldcall the flop with that rather than 3betting, then I would think he'd continue to play passively on the turn. To donk there seems a bit incongruous, though it's definitely a possibility.

I'd call the turn, but I think it's close. If you raise and are behind, you will likely end up losing 2 additional BB when SB 3bets you and you are drawing slim. If you are ahead you will make 2 additional BB if both call. So you need something like 50% equity here to raise. Given that they will sometimes have 3+ collective outs when behind, I think you'd need to have the best hand here a good bit more than 50%, probably closer to 60%.

If you have AA it's 50% less likely he has A3, so I think I'd definitely raise that one. You also are ahead the rare times he has a slow played KK. If you think K3s is a major part of his range as well, you could make the same argument for raising KK.

Is SB loose enough to coldcall the flop with something like A5s with BD flush draw?

This can be problematic becusse he'll likely just call with quads and then either donk river if 3 handed or cr HU. And assume we aren't planning to chexk back river

Lol title. I'd call the river with 66+.

you gotta have some sick reads. i call and feel like i'm nitrolling

The more I think about the hand the more I think the river is a fold. He's never calling TT+ Pf here so that's out of question. If he takes this weird like with 22/44 he's never betting the river so that's impossible.

So that basically only leaves 66-88 to pray for. Given that (1) he took the do what I can to make sure nobody is charged with 2 bets cold so they can fold line we should expect to see a monster and (2) he knows I'm not just spewing flop with random over here and likely have at least 66+ myself so I can't imagine leading turn here with 66-88 (which he may 3 bet on flop anyways)... kind of contradicts itself but basically mean that if we chexk call two cold on flop 66-88 it's always with intention of chexk calling down

Nonetheless I snap called river

I think you're giving a lot of credit to villain postflop for narrowing your hand range while simultaneously denying him credit preflop by saying he can have 3x in his range. When you raise the UTG limper from EP, your range is pretty snug too. Something like 88+/AJo+. I can't imagine how he plays perfectly well postflop but butchers preflop so badly.

[X] in before Dougl's/DesertCat's/MontrealCorp comments on "that's how I play"

Moooooooooo.

As games start to get bigger it's pretty common to see people that will be pretty leaky preflop but play relatively tough/solid post. There's lots of people that can hand read very well but just will never fold JT preflop

i would need to know sb's life story in the poker room before i would even remotely consider folding for 1 big bet in this pot

maybe this extends to a no limit thing but literally every time i've seen this kind of flop action leading to a turn donkbet live it's something like 66-88. i really want to raise turn tbh but i can see the logic in calling. and as for river, if he's still sitting there with his 77, he now thinks he has the nuts since nobody raised him on the turn, he protected his equity from the AK (since everyone has ace king), and now he can make the AK hands pay off the river since everyone's playing the board except the expertly played 77.

One more thing to add which is pretty important. UTG basically has to have 66-88 here always as well which makes it even more likely sb has quads

Sorry JL but i do not get the question?

You thinking on folding o0 ?
Or asking if we should raise the turn ?

At first glance seem pretty standard call down , nh .
99 is close to be in my raise range on turn ( depending of course how wide i would isoraise) and obviously QQ-AA are worth 1 raise on the big street.

But i like the call in this hand for not getting 3 bet and iso ourself vs the a stronger hand, i would rather keep the caller in and get the extra value from him.


ps: anyway, folding is just crazy.... you have like only 36combo better, way tooo high in your range for that with 8-1.
I mean where is the special read of nit or super passif or w.e ?

Maybe not for him, being scared of letting big cards from both of you for free on the turn so he donk.
Yes we should intent to calldown in SB place, but maybe outside factors you did not see made him play strangely in this hand.

Btw if we fold 99, you stop where ?
I mean if we need to fold 99, here i would not do it more than 1 time in 10 . You can fold it for fun i guess but not has often as 8-1 imo unless a sick read or w.e.
And has more we fold our top range, less and less we have a hand to raise post flop.



totally agree here.

Sometimes even though you have a ****ty suited handed like A3s or K3s you just have to call with them in the sb cause pot odds. Especially since I'm guessing a 75 has a 2/3 structure

I think it's actually implied odds that makes A3/k3 a call. Just look! When the flop comes 333 people put in more action and never fold their small over pairs. /s

------

As a default calling isa fine. You should have some smaller pairs and sometimes raise non pair hands, so you're not at the bottom of your range. If you have a strong enough read, fold. Obv holding QQ+ should change your decision since you need a stronger read to fold, and also beat randomly played ~JJ.

Clearly, all of this points out we should call J5s in the other thread. Problem with 2p2ers is you just need to hit the 555 flop and dodge running 9's against Jon.

It seems inconceivable to me that 22-44 would not bet this river.

Why would 22 bet the 33355 board into 2 players

Exactly because you are even think it about folding ?

Because people are bad at poker

Little bit of Column A, little bit of Column B would be my guess. He thinks he can fold a chop? He wants you to call with ace high so he can berate you for rivering him? He forgot there's a third person in the pot? He doesn't understand the significance of there being 3 people in the pot? His internal monologue says, "u miss 100% of the shots u dont take bro yoloooooooo"?

*shrug*

I thought snap call a no brainer but seems more read dependent. Most who take sb line are more capable of silliness than apparently this guy is.