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Hand vs Expert Hand vs Expert

07-06-2015 , 08:59 PM
What do you think people would have told him to do?
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07-06-2015 , 09:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by obi_wang
maybe I am actually perceived by him as being way out of line pf i dunno

Most of our history playing hands vs each other were in shorthanded games, so there is that.
Unless you play very differently than you do in my experience with you, it's really hard to imagine someone would think your showdown range is so wide that this is for value. He has to be bluffing.
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07-06-2015 , 11:01 PM
Don't really think it's defensible. Also, now imagine what his river range looks like when he just calls twice here.
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07-06-2015 , 11:21 PM
grunch. this is a really tough spot. i'd love to know specifically who this is against. unliely i know him but still curious.

this line is almost always (vs. this type of opponent) for bigtime value or a bluff. there's 5-10% that's thin value (which is what he did here). so i'd construct my range to counteract his general tendencies. you have to raise the river some % of the time (i'm lazy, and it's late, so i'm not doing the math atm) as a bluff and for mid-value like a mid ace vs. this guy as well as w/ a set + 2pr.

you also have to 3b the turn a decent %.

so given all that, and given your range, i'd (ish after all these %) call turn 40%, raise turn 30%, fold turn 30%, and call river given call turn 75%/raise 25%
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07-06-2015 , 11:50 PM
where are you getting these numbers?

And how can you decide river calling and folding percentages without even knowing what the river card is.
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07-07-2015 , 01:30 AM
My guess is that villain just thinks i have a wider pf range (kq, suited connectors, small pp) because thats what a lot of the aggro regs who dont have a lot of positional awareness tend to do.
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07-07-2015 , 04:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by UpHillBothWays
grunch. this is a really tough spot. i'd love to know specifically who this is against. unliely i know him but still curious.

this line is almost always (vs. this type of opponent) for bigtime value or a bluff. there's 5-10% that's thin value (which is what he did here). so i'd construct my range to counteract his general tendencies. you have to raise the river some % of the time (i'm lazy, and it's late, so i'm not doing the math atm) as a bluff and for mid-value like a mid ace vs. this guy as well as w/ a set + 2pr.

you also have to 3b the turn a decent %.

so given all that, and given your range, i'd (ish after all these %) call turn 40%, raise turn 30%, fold turn 30%, and call river given call turn 75%/raise 25%
i don't get where your assumptions or conclusions are coming from but you seem to completely neglect this is a narrow range spot, much like the KK did.

Like you talk about raising the river with mid aces, we don't have any in our range so how can we? We need to bluffraise the river, with what QQ exactly? Hell never fold better than QQ so that seems absurd.
people tend to struggle with narrow range spots way more then they should, often it's just what obi pointed out and they don't realize that ranges are actually as narrow as they are
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07-07-2015 , 09:13 AM
yikes thought we were in a blind battle. missed this was UTG raise-> we 3bet. yea that's compleeeetely different and we have very few hands here.

after the turn k/r, i'd expect he's trying to get you to fold an ace? i mean i don't see why this is a good play w/ KKd. it seems like he called the 3b pf in order to get in a turn k/r, but given the board, i don't think this is the time for it. you're worse (Except maybe QQ depending on if you want to make that hero cd. i'm folding QQ there though) and calling down all aces and making him pay with AA/JJ/88.
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07-08-2015 , 10:29 PM
this hand is ridiculous. why in gods name would anyone play KK this way?
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07-08-2015 , 11:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by UpHillBothWays
yikes thought we were in a blind battle. missed this was UTG raise-> we 3bet. yea that's compleeeetely different and we have very few hands here.

after the turn k/r, i'd expect he's trying to get you to fold an ace? i mean i don't see why this is a good play w/ KKd. it seems like he called the 3b pf in order to get in a turn k/r, but given the board, i don't think this is the time for it. you're worse (Except maybe QQ depending on if you want to make that hero cd. i'm folding QQ there though) and calling down all aces and making him pay with AA/JJ/88.
oops. meant your worse hands are folding and you're calling everything down and raising turn or riv w/ much better
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07-09-2015 , 04:02 AM
grunchaments:

I really hate the way he played his hand. I think this is one of the worst things to do with KK on an ace high board in a super narrow range spot. He's XR the turn with the bottom half of his range and value betting the river with it... kindof insane overaggro imo.

Are you playing against MGM by chance? =P seems like it
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07-09-2015 , 04:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by obi_wang
Just in the sense that if he is c/r w KK, he probably has a lot of naked flushdraw hands as well. So when he adds more medium strength value hands to his range, along with his bluffs, it makes it tougher to just auto-call down with like JJ.

This is all in comparison to playing vs weaker passive players who i can easily fold those hands.
Trying to value own JJ in this spot is goofy to me. My first thought when i 3bet JJ vs and UTG world crusher on Axx board is "do i want to XB the flop or the turn?"

The hands he beats are VERY regularly not showing up in the spot he's trying to value own you in

edit: JJ was a set, but you get the point =P Nut underpairs are extremely cautious in tight range spots. I hate his play

Quote:
Originally Posted by DosXX
Don't really think it's defensible. Also, now imagine what his river range looks like when he just calls twice here.
RIGHT? good lord. also his river bet is the worst part of hte hand imo. I can soooooooorrrrrrrtof understand his turn xr if he checks the river.... but he bets? *facepalm*
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