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FW 40: surrender FW 40: surrender

05-11-2015 , 04:29 PM
MSLHE seems to be lacking in content, so I'll keep giving you guys some spots.

Villain in this hand is the granddaddy of all that is nitty. Probably plays around 9/5 FR. Recently saw him open limp AQs UTG. Never seen him call a flop light against a LP open when defending his BB.

Hero has a tight image on the day, and had been getting crushed early on. Table may thinking I'm getting slightly tilted (I'm not, but I currently have only about $1600 on the table after starting with $4600. Hero buys in big, so people notice when the chip total is dwindling).

Action: villain is the blind. He bought the BTN and posted his dead small and live big.

Hero has T 7 in the CO and opens. Vil defends.

Flop QJ3r w/ a diamond I bet and villain calls

Turn offsuit 6 he checks and I give up.

My thoughts:
Spoiler:
i don't expect a tight player who doesn't like to peel flops light to have many call/folds on this texture. By betting turn, I'm committing to firing three barrels when I am drawing dead to Qx, Jx, and almost dead to hands like AK, KT, T9s, etc. OTOH, I never expect him to show down hands like AK, 88, etc here, and would like a wide three barrel range to exploit his foldy tendencies. I'm not sure if T7s is a good member of this set, however; I think a better barrel off range may be:

{A7s- w/ a FD, other turned FD's, KT, K9, T9, 54s}

Is this too narrow of a three barrel range? I feel like we should have a large steal range from the CO with a player like this in the BB
FW 40: surrender Quote
05-11-2015 , 05:27 PM
I like it given your image and his style of play.

I may even just fold pre with how things have been going during the session. If we weren't getting crushed, we'd have a better time working ten high through.
FW 40: surrender Quote
05-11-2015 , 08:22 PM
nh.

this isn't a standard open for me pre flop. but, vs. a guy that is likely under-defending his bb and will be easy to play against post flop, i like it. it's not like it's out of line or anything, it's just one pip lower than my default.
FW 40: surrender Quote
05-11-2015 , 09:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodeo
nh.

this isn't a standard open for me pre flop. but, vs. a guy that is likely under-defending his bb and will be easy to play against post flop, i like it. it's not like it's out of line or anything, it's just one pip lower than my default.
Same for me. I do tend to expand my ranges against weak-tight blinds until they can prove that they'll defend 97o and hang on when the flop is KJ7r.

OTOH, I hate range expansion when stuck in a live game because people usually think you're spewing when stuck (I failed to mention a loose and fairly aggressive player is OTB, albeit one who doesn't go out of his way to play pots v me).
FW 40: surrender Quote
05-11-2015 , 10:14 PM
I like it as played. I'd bluff an Ace or King river but nothing else.

On turn bluffing range construction, I think that if there's no flushdraw, you can get away with bluffing weaker straightdraws like 98s and T8s, but if there's a flushdraw then I don't bluff the gutshots.
FW 40: surrender Quote
05-11-2015 , 10:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob148
I like it as played. I'd bluff an Ace or King river but nothing else.

On turn bluffing range construction, I think that if there's no flushdraw, you can get away with bluffing weaker straightdraws like 98s and T8s, but if there's a flushdraw then I don't bluff the gutshots.
I think complete airballing when called on this texture is pointless; agreed?

If the board were more peel happy, like a 633 or a J62, I think he has plenty of hands that get to the turn that don't plan on showing down unimproved. My barrel ranges would probably look much different on those (hands like 87 would likely be a member in #1, and Q9 in #2)
FW 40: surrender Quote
05-11-2015 , 10:40 PM
I think the only only way to bet the turn is if he's the type to fold AK or A10 on the river if he misses...but those guys are a rare special breed.
FW 40: surrender Quote
05-12-2015 , 07:11 AM
this decision 100% hinges on this:

Quote:
Never seen him call a flop light against a LP open when defending his BB.
useless to discuss ranges/barrelling etc. until that's cleared up. what does this mean exactly?

is AK a light call? small-mid pairs? AT? or do you mean only hands like T8 don't call and the rest i mentioned above are not light?

if he'll fold 1/3 of his hands that make it to the turn on the river, you can't give up. so getting a sense of his range on the turn after he checks is the only thing that matters here.

given he's shown NO aggression so far he probably doesn't have top top hands. you said he's tight, but how passive is he (open limping AQs is indeed passive, but what about post flop)?

and how attached to his "Good hands" is he. as you know, many super tight people are completely showdown bound w/ anything the like preflop b/c they play so few hands. this doesn't seem to be the case here though, but i'm not sure.

taking pots off of villains like this is huge, so if his range includes enough hands that he'll fold for a turn and riv bet where it's 1/3 of the set, you have to be 2 more times.
FW 40: surrender Quote
05-12-2015 , 11:30 AM
I think preflop would be close with two natural blinds, but with just one blind and a dead small blind I think a raise is in order. However, this is the worst suited two gapper that I'd raise here. 96s gets mucked as does 54s and 64s. Being out of position to the button makes the difference for me with those hands.

I wonder what a good button opening range would be when someone buys the button.
FW 40: surrender Quote
05-12-2015 , 11:48 AM
I don't hate pre flop but I would have folded. You have a Laggy button behind you and a potentially tilty image. I also find that when players buy the button they tend to be a little more stubborn with their defending.

The only way a nitty player is gonna get your money is if you give it to him. I would pick my spots very carefully regarding bluffs. I would tend to take one shot on bluff favorable turns because I think a player like this is more showdown bound if he calls, and less likely to have picked up a draw. I would tend not to 3 barrel unless I am on a good draw and I think the villian could potentially have a draw as well.
FW 40: surrender Quote
05-12-2015 , 12:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig
I don't hate pre flop but I would have folded. You have a Laggy button behind you and a potentially tilty image. I also find that when players buy the button they tend to be a little more stubborn with their defending.

The only way a nitty player is gonna get your money is if you give it to him. I would pick my spots very carefully regarding bluffs. I would tend to take one shot on bluff favorable turns because I think a player like this is more showdown bound if he calls, and less likely to have picked up a draw. I would tend not to 3 barrel unless I am on a good draw and I think the villian could potentially have a draw as well.
this is a generalization that is not necessarily true. AK/AT type hands can call turn thinking a) i might get a free showdown, b) my AKT might be good, and/or c) i still have my gutter draw.

on the river, they do not plan on calling the last bet. betting the turn means you pretty much have to bet the river. the choice is give up now and k/k or think he'll fold a better hand more than the 4:2 the pot's offering you to double barrel turn / river assuming he calls turn.
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05-12-2015 , 10:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob148
I think preflop would be close with two natural blinds, but with just one blind and a dead small blind I think a raise is in order. However, this is the worst suited two gapper that I'd raise here. 96s gets mucked as does 54s and 64s. Being out of position to the button makes the difference for me with those hands.

I wonder what a good button opening range would be when someone buys the button.
Do you play somewhere we you literally put in the blind with the button? I've only see it where you put it up in between small and big blind and you are first to act post flop.
FW 40: surrender Quote
05-12-2015 , 10:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob148
I like it as played. I'd bluff an Ace or King river but nothing else.
I think this is a good point if for no other reason than to maintain concentration. I catch myself saying things like, "I'm giving up if he calls," or "I'm calling him down all streets." These are fine things to think about early in a hand as general plan ideas. But always be ready for an unexpected runout, maybe a bluff card, maybe a fold card, running 4 flush, 4 straight and the like that might present a detour from the planned route.
FW 40: surrender Quote
05-12-2015 , 10:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by prototypepariah
Do you play somewhere we you literally put in the blind with the button? I've only see it where you put it up in between small and big blind and you are first to act post flop.
How it works in our house (Bob148 and I both play in the same live location, go figure he's the better player and I'm the one spewing at 40) is that a player has the option to "buy" the button if they have missed their natural BB, but the button has not gone past yet. When you do this, you have to post a dead small blind (which you would have posted now, had you not missed your BB) and the missed BB, which is live.

So no, the BB and Button can never be one in the same. I do think this way of doing it makes more sense than allowing people to post in between the button and blind.

/tangent.
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05-13-2015 , 01:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by UpHillBothWays
this is a generalization that is not necessarily true. AK/AT type hands can call turn thinking a) i might get a free showdown, b) my AKT might be good, and/or c) i still have my gutter draw.

on the river, they do not plan on calling the last bet. betting the turn means you pretty much have to bet the river. the choice is give up now and k/k or think he'll fold a better hand more than the 4:2 the pot's offering you to double barrel turn / river assuming he calls turn.
I think you have pick your spots. I agree there will be times you should bet the turn and river. I don't think that just because you bet the turn you have to bet ther river.
FW 40: surrender Quote
05-13-2015 , 02:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig
I think you have pick your spots. I agree there will be times you should bet the turn and river. I don't think that just because you bet the turn you have to bet ther river.
According to GTO (I know, I know), by the river, our opponent is getting a more attractive price to call than he was on the turn (call it 5.25:1 on a river call). So theoretically, if we continue to barrel all of our value hands, we need hands that we "give up" with on a bluff.

I think the best candidates for that are hands that don't block hands we'd like to fold from our opponent. A hand like KT would be a good example, as this blocks both AK and AT.

A better river bluff, IMO, would be 54 as an example, as it would maximize all the possible broadway straight draws that called twice to target. Also brings up that we likely should be continuing w/ all our idiot end of the straight gutshots w/ FD; hands like 98s don't block villain's fold combos either.

Obviously just thinking out loud. Coming up w/ value ranges on the fly is easy; bluffing OTOH is much harder. Probably why so few are any good at it .
FW 40: surrender Quote
05-13-2015 , 03:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr0317
How it works in our house (Bob148 and I both play in the same live location, go figure he's the better player and I'm the one spewing at 40) is that a player has the option to "buy" the button if they have missed their natural BB, but the button has not gone past yet. When you do this, you have to post a dead small blind (which you would have posted now, had you not missed your BB) and the missed BB, which is live.

So no, the BB and Button can never be one in the same. I do think this way of doing it makes more sense than allowing people to post in between the button and blind.

/tangent.
You post immediately before the button, aka the worst position. Thus are last to act pre but more importantly first to act postflop!?!?
FW 40: surrender Quote
05-13-2015 , 04:28 AM
i guess i don't typically barrel turns with no equity.

but this time i think im going to keep betting until he folds, i catch a 7 on the river, or i show him ten high.
FW 40: surrender Quote
05-13-2015 , 08:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by prototypepariah
You post immediately before the button, aka the worst position. Thus are last to act pre but more importantly first to act postflop!?!?
Yes but then you get to play your button the next hand as opposed to having to wait for the cutoff. It usually works out perfectly for having a smoke: Fold 82o utg, get up, have a smoke, miss your big blind, finish smoke, buy the button. It should be pointed out that when you miss your blinds and post in the cutoff, you must post a live big blind and a dead small blind. The price is the same but you miss your button.
FW 40: surrender Quote
05-13-2015 , 09:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr0317
Bob148 and I both play in the same live location, go figure he's the better player and I'm the one spewing at 40
I'm flattered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob148
I wonder what a good button opening range would be when someone buys the button.
So we're risking 2 small bets to win 1.5, which is a 57% pot investment. Compare that to a heads up game with natural blinds where we risk 1.5 small bets to win 1.5, which is a 50% pot investment. Clearly, we should raise somewhat less often in the former.

What about when we're called? The former case is a 44.444% investment, while the latter case is a 37.5% investment. Again we should raise somewhat less often in the former.

Contrast those numbers with opening on the button with natural blinds. Now, we're risking 2 small bets to win 1.5, which is the same 57% pot investment, but we have twice as many opponents. If 50% is accepted as a decent preflop raising frequency on the button with natural blinds, and 80% is accepted as a decent preflop raising frequency in a heads up game, then at least we can say that, when an opponent buys the button and it folds to us on the button, that we should be raising somewhere between 50% and 80%.

I have no idea where to go from there. My guess is that a good button opening frequency will be somewhere between 65% and 70% because the situation more closely resembles a heads up match than it does a three handed game.
FW 40: surrender Quote
05-13-2015 , 09:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob148

I wonder what a good button opening range would be when someone buys the button.
Probably pretty close to any 2. When playing HU you're opening close to that. I know you've got the small blind invested in that case, but in this case, he's put the small blind in dead.
FW 40: surrender Quote
05-13-2015 , 12:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr0317
Same for me. I do tend to expand my ranges against weak-tight blinds until they can prove that they'll defend 97o and hang on when the flop is KJ7r.

OTOH, I hate range expansion when stuck in a live game because people usually think you're spewing when stuck (I failed to mention a loose and fairly aggressive player is OTB, albeit one who doesn't go out of his way to play pots v me).
I would play the hand the same way you did. I don't see anything wrong with the pre-flop raise and would open wider than that in this situation. The button is your only concern, but once past him, it is the exact scenario you want. If you are not willing to put yourself in position to play heads up against an inferior player (that you also have strong reads on), while you also have position on that player, then what are we doing here?
FW 40: surrender Quote
05-13-2015 , 12:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by prototypepariah
You post immediately before the button, aka the worst position. Thus are last to act pre but more importantly first to act postflop!?!?
Correct. You're effectively the SB and BB in the same hand.
FW 40: surrender Quote
05-13-2015 , 12:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr0317
Correct. You're effectively the SB and BB in the same hand.
Is 'buying the button' not a common thing in most casinos/games? It is just something I have always seen done and thought it was as commonplace as posting normal blinds or a straddle utg, etc. Do some other random places treat it differently then mentioned above?
FW 40: surrender Quote

      
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