If you were planning on calling down UI, consider FSDR turn with 10hi!

this is very bad though

Costs us an extra bet if he 3bets... and have a double gutter...

if bb slow plays monsters you aren't getting 3 bet on the turn. And if you can call the river you should raise the turn.

Pretty sure it can't be very bad to CONSIDER a fsdr. I get that 'fsdr' is generally spewy, but lots of people are advocating raising the turn.. and only one suggests betting river.

Captain R -- "raise the turn"
ninefingershuffle -- "raise the turn"
ontherail -- "you should fold river or raise turn"
lesslurkmorepost -- "we're better off raising the turn (and betting river) than we are trying to snap off with Ten high."
steveistheman -- "i like raising turn"
Spirit-of-Wisdom -- "If you wanna be a hero, you need to raise the turn"

Many also seem to agree that calling down Thi is good. So raising turn and barreling river is gonna be pretty bad since we're turning a showdown hand into a bluff..

Well, my quoted line was in reference to the read given by someone other than OP. If we take OP's read, I don't like raising.

I guess I just want to know from BBB, what he hates about FSDR.

Raising turn, or checking back river given we raise turn..

when you raise the turn, are you semibluffing (hoping he folds a better hand now or on our river barrel) or free showdown raising (hoping he calls with a worse hand now and then we both check the river)?

My understanding of a good FSDR is this, and I never do it unless all conditions are met

1. Hero is never calling a 3-bet or a river donk
1. Villain(s) can call with hands we beat, i.e. flush draws
2. Villain(s) can fold hands we beat
3. Villain(s) is/are never 3-bet with worse

This is a terrible spot for this mostly because we have to call a 3-bet on turn with our gutshot and villain is very aggressive.

We have double gutter.

Villain's range is wide enough that he can fold better and call worse.

6 other people suggested raising the turn. Turn is at least debateable/close -- not clearly terrible.

How does this make FSDR more appealing?

It makes raising turn less bad, since we hate getting 3b less.

I hate getting 3-bet with a dbl gutter cause I have to call.

If I've got air I can happily fold

This

You have to compare actions. This hand is not ahead of his range. So we are weighing a fsdr against call call or even call fold. In theory, a fsdr does better because of what villain folds. In practice, it's super sensitive to being 3b bluffed.

Here's the thread that I remember setting me straight on the fsdr.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/53...please-567936/

I get why FSDR is generally bad. I've read Newall bash Stox's section on FSDR. I get the underlying idea that BBB highlighted: a bet should usually be for value or as a bluff -- i.e., if we bet turn, we should either be vbetting or barrel bluffing river. Ergo, checking river is counter-intuitive given a turn raise.

That said, you'd be a damn fool to end your analysis there. There will be times when it is correct to raise turn and check river. Exceptions exist. We should look for them and at least consider the option of FSDR.

As mentioned, in this spot, villain's range is wide enough that he can fold many better hands and call many worse hands. I agree that FSDR is susceptible to villain 3b bluff. But in practice, 3b bluffs tend to be rare. We also have equity to call a 3b -- not like we're FSDR'ing a small PP like Stox writes in his book.

Ideally, we should indeed COMPARE ACTIONS. call-fold kinda sucks since we beat enough of his range. ILP makes a good point about how call-raise river may even be more profitable in case villain folds better.

Any time we can get a villain to fold a better hand, it is HUGE, and should be considered.

I feel like if we are raising the turn villain can fold a lot of his flush draws on river too so we have to bet the river as well. Not a FSDR. Is villain really showing down his high card hands? Maybe Ax but Kx and worse?

I agree that 3bet bluffs are rare and that's not what I'm concerned about. I'm more concerned with getting value 3bet on turn and having to call it when we would've only put in 1bet on turn with a call.

I'm not against raising turn but I'm not a fan of checking back the river if we raise turn.