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frustrating but likely standard hand frustrating but likely standard hand

08-04-2015 , 01:22 AM
mix game (one of funnest I've played live, as it had limit games and the big bet played 20/40 w 2k cap, I'm thankful for that cap lol).

Villain from South Florida and I recognize him from tv or something and seemed to take offence when someone said something disparaging about the Grinder Mizrachi's play lol. He mostly plays big bet I presume, despite the plethora of mid stakes limit games he has to choose from in that region. Has open limped in 2-7 and 3! QQ109ss in LO8. His starting hand selection is too loose in general, but he plays appropriately aggressive postflop imo.

Hero has been running well and hasn't been showing down weak hands, except for a Q badugi that I ran a squeeze play with that knocked out the best hand but got outdrawn by the 3rd player. I'm sure I've made some bet sizing mistakes in the NL/PLO rounds. Hero has been active and defending widely in the limit holdem round.

Hero (BB) dealt 22

CO opens, SB folds, Hero defends

Flop: 863r x/b/c

After seeing good players advocate x/r big Aces for value on low boards that are better for the BB range (not sure if this board qualifies), I'm wondering if maybe I should x/r here. Villain is likely to barrel off with possibly his whole opening range, though, so maybe 22 is a x/r, but not against this opponent. I'm not sure. Against some it might even be a fold if they only cbet a PP or when the board improved their holding.

Turn: J x/b/c

Villain auto bets here. He has been talking a lot during hands and it usually has indicated strength, besides a couple occasions when the content of his table banter betrayed the weakness of his holding. He is quiet now, but acting very quickly.

River: 10 x/b/c

The 10 is a pretty bad card, but again, villain starts to bet before the river is fully dealt. I'm confused and call, hoping to beat AK/AQ (villain is capable of putting me on A5/A4/A2 and value betting), sometimes A9, and KQ or K9 if he thinks he is bluffing those types of hands. I considered x/r and repping Q9 or a weirdly slowplayed set, as I think 22 is somewhere around the top of my folding range and the bottom of my calling range, and I've already x/r the river for value in FL, but not versus villain.

Hint #1 for villain's hand: what could he turn over that would make us the most frustrated? Hint #2: it's not AJ

Thoughts on all postflop play appreciated, thx
frustrating but likely standard hand Quote
08-04-2015 , 01:34 AM
i c/c flop too. i like the flop to be low and paired to c/r good aces and small pp's. i fold turn and as played, pay off river.
frustrating but likely standard hand Quote
08-04-2015 , 01:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveistheman84
i fold turn and as played, pay off river.
How come?

Against a 20% CO opening range we're about 50% on the turn, given that OP said villain was basically auto firing 2 streets. On the river our equity drops but we're still about 35% getting 5:1. So it would seem to me that we shouldn't fold turn (too much equity) and when we get to the river we're getting a decent price to call.

I'm way behind on my studying and I don't actually know if 20% for CO is reasonable.
frustrating but likely standard hand Quote
08-04-2015 , 02:04 AM
Villain had 97?
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08-04-2015 , 02:49 AM
I call the flop and turn. On the river, I would fold a lot of the time, but the context you describe here would sway me into calling I think.

Quote:
I'm confused and call, hoping to beat AK/AQ (villain is capable of putting me on A5/A4/A2 and value betting), sometimes A9, and KQ or K9 if he thinks he is bluffing those types of hands
Since he auto-bet the river as it was being dealt in, I don't think it's likely he's thought it through. He'd need a second or two to assess your small ace high and K high range after a T hits the river.

Quote:
Hint #1 for villain's hand: what could he turn over that would make us the most frustrated? Hint #2: it's not AJ
I don't think any hand would be frustrating, but T2o would be pretty funny. 23o would be great too. Both are possible given his previous 72 limp.
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08-04-2015 , 08:01 AM
i was assuming villain is auto 3barreling with his whole range. if he isn't barreling his ace and king hi's on river, i fold river too.
frustrating but likely standard hand Quote
08-04-2015 , 05:08 PM
Opening 20% in CO is really low for LHE. Given description, I'd put villain PFR% at least at 40%

Most frustrating thing he can turn over: 2To obviously.

-If he's triple barreling everything, flatting flop to fold to a turn J is really bad. Best plan is to call down the whole way, unless we really hate how the board comes out.
-If he's double barreling everything, checking back most Khi Ahi on river, would strongly consider x/r turn. The plan sucks, but we have enough equity on the turn and might even get some FE. I think its better than the passive alternative of call turn, let him play really well against us on the river.
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08-04-2015 , 11:16 PM
Just so it's clear - the villain was described as open limping in the 2-7 round. He did not open limp 27o in holdem.
frustrating but likely standard hand Quote
08-05-2015 , 10:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by phunkphish
Opening 20% in CO is really low for LHE. Given description, I'd put villain PFR% at least at 40%

Most frustrating thing he can turn over: 2To obviously.

-If he's triple barreling everything, flatting flop to fold to a turn J is really bad. Best plan is to call down the whole way, unless we really hate how the board comes out.
-If he's double barreling everything, checking back most Khi Ahi on river, would strongly consider x/r turn. The plan sucks, but we have enough equity on the turn and might even get some FE. I think its better than the passive alternative of call turn, let him play really well against us on the river.
nah, most frustrating thing he can turn over is clearly A3o for the sick value bet.
frustrating but likely standard hand Quote
08-05-2015 , 01:03 PM
What's your range on the river and how is 22 doing in it?

My guess is on the flop, you peel something like:

Any ace (maybe A2 gets folded), Kx w/ overs or BDFD, maybe a QJ, any gutter, BDFD w/ overs at a certain rate, 22, 44, 55, some strong delays.

My guess is, by the river, we *should* have a lot of hands that are now a pair. If he's triple barreling a ton, we should even have plenty of hands that we can check-raise the river with. 22 is probably a fold for me at this point, though I could be convinced otherwise.
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08-05-2015 , 04:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr0317
What's your range on the river and how is 22 doing in it?

My guess is on the flop, you peel something like:

Any ace (maybe A2 gets folded), Kx w/ overs or BDFD, maybe a QJ, any gutter, BDFD w/ overs at a certain rate, 22, 44, 55, some strong delays.

My guess is, by the river, we *should* have a lot of hands that are now a pair. If he's triple barreling a ton, we should even have plenty of hands that we can check-raise the river with. 22 is probably a fold for me at this point, though I could be convinced otherwise.
Agree with this. If he is not triple barreling air, missed draws and big aces a lot, then folding the river is fine. Not having position, I don't like raising the turn here either.

Two Frustrating hands would be:

10 2o
10 7o - gutterball that hit the 10

or possibly 22 as well knowing we could have moved him off the hand with some more aggressive play!
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08-08-2015 , 06:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by UpHillBothWays
nah, most frustrating thing he can turn over is clearly A3o for the sick value bet.
Ding Ding Ding! Props, I didn't think anyone would guess it. And the confidence!

I think the river is the worst card, as it completes a lot of straight draws villain definitely would hold, or gives him a pair bigger than mine.

I still can't decide whether this is the right type of spot to turn my hand into a bluff on the river.

I'd estimate his RFI from CO is like 40% ( A3o in this case). And villain is likely to barrel off his whole range. He had shown more nuance in some other games, but played FLHE fairly straightforward.

I guess he learned how to own me in all those mid stakes limit games they have in Florida . . .
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08-10-2015 , 03:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacauBound
Ding Ding Ding! Props, I didn't think anyone would guess it. And the confidence!

I think the river is the worst card, as it completes a lot of straight draws villain definitely would hold, or gives him a pair bigger than mine.

I still can't decide whether this is the right type of spot to turn my hand into a bluff on the river.

I'd estimate his RFI from CO is like 40% ( A3o in this case). And villain is likely to barrel off his whole range. He had shown more nuance in some other games, but played FLHE fairly straightforward.

I guess he learned how to own me in all those mid stakes limit games they have in Florida . . .
do i win only props? if so, no worries as you did make it kinda easy. the way you played the hand from his perspective looks precisely like a draw (doesn't call river), weak pair that didn't kr (unlikely b/c even w/ 44 that's a great flop to kr), or ahigh looking to show down. of those hands, by far the most likely is Ahigh looking to show down (there's no flush draw and only 1 remaining good straight draw that didn't get there). that draw also probably puts in some action (75) looking to get non-ace broadway cards to fold. so given the flop, board, and action, you have a weirdly played hand you're folding, an ace, or the nuts basically every time. you may even have a good ace that you planned on kr'ing at some point but then decided not to, but i'm ignoring those as i'm assuming he's not thinking this. since you had 22, you'd win vs. the thin value bet of AK or AQ (to get value from your A9/A5etc. type hand). and the most frustrating thing always is to get thinvalueowned (being drawn out is way two-thousand-and-late) so there's only 1 hand that can do that given the action and board...

another important thing vs. thinking players (forget who this is against), but against good players, you absolutely need to turn the top of your folding range here into a bluff at least some of the time. so if you don't k/r the flop or turn w/ KQ, you should k/r bluff the river sometimes.

finally, where did you get the 40% number from? try to build a range that's 40%...you'll see it includes a crapload of crap. if A3 is the bottom of the range, it's closer to 20% than 40% by farrrr
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