In honor of DD's bracelet here's a hand I played against him in the 3k 6max.

DD is a good lag who thinks of me as a good very sd bound lag/tag on the tag side of that spectrum. He knows I have no 4betting range pre here and he knows I know that he'll be chking most of his range on this flop.

BB is a very good pro from LA who both DD and I respect. He has a good grasp on both of our games.

I open AcKx in the CO. DD 3b the SB. BB calls. I call.

Flop 9J8r

DD chk. BB chk. I chk.

Turn Qc bringing bd fd

DD bets. BB calls. I call.

River As

DD bets. BB folds. I fold.

I would call closing the action getting 7.5:1. Seems like losing one big bet often isn't as bad as giving up the pot sometimes.

I'd fold the turn

I don't get the turn call if you're going to fold a river Ace. What cards and action were you hoping for on the river (other than a Ten)?

nvm

what chillrob said +1

You say DD knows that you know he'll be checking this flop a lot. But what's your check back range here? And does DD have a sensible idea of what it might be?

Ace or king getting chked to me. I think my hand is good a lot when the ace comes but almost never when DD bets after the ace comes.

I doubt he called turn just hoping to spike a ten getting 4.5:1. Especially when there might only be 3 left. I'm guessing he had plans depending on what transpires if another diamond hit? Maybe not. But these guys play in the stratosphere.

If PF 3bettor is sometimes checking back flops, I'd say its wrong to never 4bet pre. With a 3rd player in, its more likely PF 3bettor doesn't cbet, meaning its more right to sometimes 4b pre.

Flop, my expectation is that we rarely get xred, so it might be interesting to blast away and 3barrel wide, especially since its a tournament.

That's why I was curious what hands your checking back on this flop. I'm sure you know, but does he? What else can he do with the bottom of his range (like 44-77, KQ, K9s or even KJ)? He has to feel like a dog with any of these hands if he checks and someone else bets this river. And he's repping a ten, sets, or two pairs, I'd think he almost has to turn these hands into bluffs even though the ace likely could've helped someone.

Btw- I'm not giving advice here. Just trying to learn.

Well I'd say there's about zero chance he'll bet 44-77 on the turn. I'd guess he'd xf the river w KQ. The only hand I am kinda worried about him turning into a bluff is KcJc exactly.

I'm curious why he would check most of his range on this flop, especially something like KcJc.

Fold turn

He probably wouldn't, but that flop is not great for his range vs our ranges so he should be checking a lot.

Why don't you?

what's your 4 betting range in this spot?

If he thinks an ace will often be good when checked to, then the turn call is probably correct at 4.5:1 even if he has to check back the river.

I'm more curious what his check back range on this flop is, and where AK falls within the distribution of hands he gets to the river with. I would think he'd be betting QQ-AA, sets, and most pairs when checked to. But if he'd sometimes check back A8, A9, K9s, Q9s (and he's right about DD never turning 55-77 into bluffs), then he's probably not high enough to make the river call and DD's bottom 11% is probably too good to turn into bluffs anyway.

I'm trying to use p/(p+1) to figure out what his calling frequency should be here to make DD indifferent to bluffing, but I'm probably not applying it incorrectly. There's also the question of the BB, but unless he has a ten, DD has to know it's pretty hard for him to call after he bets again into two players on the river, which is kind of why I find this hand so interesting and am kind of obsessing over it.

I actually agree with phunk on this one. I like sometimes 4 pre here but once we flat I love firing flop when checked to. Then firing turn q.

I think I would chk back all those hands you mentioned otf

Does BB also know that you don't have a 4-betting range in this spot?

Also, are we to assume that this hand is playing like a cash game hand would?

With a 5bet cap I would think not 4betting pre is a fairly big mistake.

Why? Their 5 betting range here would probably be KK+.
Not giving 2 people a chance to cap exactly KK or AA when we have KK can possibly me a fairly big mistake.

I don't think you can call the turn. You can probably raise it at some small frequency with this hand. As played to the river I agree with the fold.

I would think that is too narrow of a 5betting range, at least from a GTO point of view. Plus we have the chance to get BB to put in the 4th (or 5th) bet with a hand that is likely dominated and won't necessarily call a flop bet (if the flop even gets bet).

grunching this one. interesting spot.

1. is it a 4b or 5b cap in the WSOP limit events?

2. (NOTE: i'm assuming 4 bet cap here for this discussion) pf, why do you have no 4betting (capping) range when there's 3 people in the pot? i def agree w/ the no 4betting range when it's HU, but when there's 3 people in the pot and you have position and a hand that both plays well postflop and has a decent chance of dominating at least one of your opponents, i'd want to get more money in preflop. also, since this is a tournament, i think it also becomes harder to make up the extra sbs postflop.

re: range, in this exact spot i'm thinking {TT+,AQo+, maybe AJs depending on what i think of DD's overall range against me here}. i think narrowing my range significantly becomes worth the extra 2sbs here, especially if DD is capable of checking flops so i'm not guaranteed the great relative position of him betting all flops all the time out of position and seeing what bb does.

3. now that DD has checked this flop, that's a pretty big piece of info. i'm not much familiar with limit tournaments, nor am i familiar with DD's game overall, but he's basically said he has a hand like AQ or AT (i think in a cash game he'd bet these, but since chips are more valuable in a tourney you'd prefer not to be raised even though you have the equity to fall back on if nobody folds. and i think DD's check here is good since that flop smashes hero's range and the BB's range). he may also have 77, but he'll never have a set or an overpair. some tiny chance he has TT but i think he'd bet that on this flop for sure.

it becomes questionable then what he'd do with suited aces that hit <top pair assuming he'd 3b your CO open w/ such aces down to maybe 8 or 7. so let's say he'd 3b A8s and A9s pf, is he donk checking those now on this flop? personally i think he'd b/c those and see what develops on the turn, but i can see an argument for checking since there's quite a few cards that suck on the turn (where having the betting lead isn't to our advantage) and k/r'ing the flop when the BU bets to squeeze out the bb's possible gutshots or 5 outers is a possibility.

in terms of the BB, is he the type to play the JTs of the world in this spot? there's a lot of widely varying play i've seen from solid players across the board but for now i'll assume he's only playing big cards and pairs here (hands that can SD and don't need implied odds to be worth playing). if that's the case, then i'm having trouble putting the bb on a hand on the turn. there's not many Ts he can have here except TT pretty much, he has somebody to act behind him (and somebody whose hand is almost surely improved - either draw wise or made hand wise or both - by the Q), and he can't really have many/any 1 pair hands that would call here let alone 2paired hands (he's not calling QJs,J9s etc. based on my assumption above). i guess AJ/AQ/KQs (maybe) and that's pretty much it.

i think if BB had a set (the most likely value hand pretty much if he is happy about his hand), he'd bet the flop once the pf 3bettor decides to donk check that board. he's also not calling 77/66 once DD bets the turn since DD's range becomes the strongest once he bets the turn despite having 3b then donk checked the flop. he can now have the made straights (AT basically), top pair (AQ), but since HERO checked the flop, i think it makes it less likely that DD and BB would put hero on a T even though he's the one who should be able to have ALL THE TENS lol (so there's actually an argument to be made here for betting the flop WITHOUT the T just based on the perceived ranges, IFF DD and BB are capable of laying hands down. it's a pretty good setup, it only costs 1 sb, and hero is SO unlikely to be kr'd given the action).

so once DD bets the turn and BB calls, it's def decision time. i'm actually OK w/ a fold here. there's really not much we're happy to see on the river. if we hit the A/K and it checks down, sure there's some chance we're good, but even then at 4.5:1 we're a pretty decent distance from getting the right odds, and our "4 out" draw to the nuts (maybe the club one is tarnished) is probably more like a 3 out draw when you take into account the bet/call action on the turn and the club.

calling i think would be very close though (i think all said/done i'm putting it as a close 2nd and i think folding is actually probably best here).

raising is a possibility too b/c of the lack of Ts in BOTH their ranges. again, HERO is the one who CAN have all the tens. if my assumptions/logic about the pf ranges in a tournament for DD and BB are correct, then DD can easily be b/f'ing this turn. both of them really can't have many tens and hero can have the tens (this is ALSO IFF everybody knows that conserving chips may be worth checking this flop as hero. i think i may have said above somewhere hero bets the flop w/ a naked T but actually i think he may check in a tournament since chips are more valuable and you don't want to charge yourself for a good draw that you can possibly realize the full equity of for 1bb vs. >1bb).

so sure it's risky, but after ranging these guys it may be worth the 3bb to try to win the whole pot (you have to bet the river as well in case DD has like A8cc/A9cc/AQcc).

anyways, personally i fold the turn by a tiny margin and raising may be the higher EV play (maybe even positive and thus above folding) relative to calling, but it's super risky and i'm a bit more conservative in this spot since for raising to be right, a LOT of my assumptions/guesswork would have to be right.

also, sorry lol. sorry for a few things:

1. this post turned out to be way longer than i initially intended
2. i wrote it basically stream of consciousness and left/came back to it a few times so it may be a badly written post,
3. i am now too lazy to reread it/correct it so it may be all kinds of weird in spots.

i may come back to this and if so i'll delete the #3 item on that list and note it in the reasons for editing text box.