I have always tried to play in games that had bad loose aggressive players. They can be wild at times but I figured that there are so many mistakes being made in these games that I should be playing them.

Upon further inspection I have been finding that I haven't been doing well in extreme loose aggressive games. Is there ever a point when too many loose aggro players is a bad thing? Does anybody avoid these games? Is there a specific kind of adjustment that people make in these games? Anybody with similar experiences?

OP, I think any advice you could possibly get in this thread will be much enhanced by:

- posting an example hand (maybe two)
- discussing some general strategic things you do in these games


But in general, the answer is simply to play tight. It's boring, but if guys are constantly playing junk hands, then you'll eventually get dealt good hands and will take advantage of it.

How the game is playing postflop matters, too. Is the game seeing a ton of HU, 3 bet pots, or a ton of super MW pots? Your starting hands are going to vary a lot depending on what the game texture is like.

Its been a while since I played in one of these games. Probably a few weeks at least. Most of the hands are 6 or 7 handed pre flop and very aggressive and its hard for me to remember how the hands go.

I do play tight in these games. It feels like my big hands never hold up. Guys are limping and re raising with weird hands. Its hard to put anybody on anything. Big pairs and big aces get cracked unimproved and if I don't get away from them I lose more. Of course hitting sets pay off huge and so do hitting draws. Playing tight hasn't worked for me I don't believe.

I was wondering if there is ever a game you (or anybody) looks at and decides that its too aggressive and loose? Is that something that people do?

OP, tight may not mean what you think it means.

What are you doing pre in this type of game if there are 3+ weird limpers, the weird CO raises and you have A9s on the BTN?

How about if maniac opens the HJ and you have KTo on the CO?

I call A9s OTB thinking its profitable to play a suited ace on the button multiway and could easily even have the best hand with the group I am playing with. Probably can make a case for 3 bet but I'll admit that I wouldn't do that very often.

I would fold KTo in the CO. I am not going to lie, I can see good reasons to 3 bet both hands (or not) but I admit that I wouldn't make those plays in real time. I don't want to get involved with these kinds of hands in this game knowing blinds may not fold and hand is a toss up vs original raiser.

How would you play those Chasqui? Interesting hands, thanks for the discussion.

Generally, these games are great to be in. Of course, some players are bad at adjusting to this type of game and it would benefit them to avoid the game, but should then focus on learning how to properly adjust.

These games will also have high variance so someone who does not handle swings will might avoid it. Again, that's a leak that needs to be fixed.

My general advice would be that the combination of your opponents having weak/wide ranges and bloated pots means you should be seeing a lot of showdowns. This is especially true once the pot becomes heads up, but over-calling makes a lot more sense in these games than it does in more "reasonable" ones.

I think where they are going with this is that these are slam dunk 3! hands in the games described. I'd suggest running some stoves on how KTo and A9s fair against the opening range of a maniac and you may be surprised.

-hf

It doesn't really matter how it does against the range of one maniac though. OP is talking about "loose" games where you can't isolate, and a lot of people are going to see the flop.

Yes. I want to emphasize this. I am not talking about a game with one maniac in it. I am talking about extreme loose aggressive live games (in this instance 20/40, but i have played in these games at all stakes up to 100/200) where it's late, most of the table has lost control, 2/3 of the table is on full blown tilt and it seems to be contagious. Most flops are 6 handed at least, people are playing back at each other, they are not folding any kind of draw before the river, multiple players are making it to the river, and its very rare for the blinds to fold for any amount.

I don't know if I can exactly describe the game because each one takes on a life of its own and not all players are playing the same. There is a spectrum and some players are worse then others, some more aggressive than others, etc.... The one constant is they are always very loose and aggressive on every street. The players have significant leaks but at the same time can put you in tough spots.

I don't know if people have experience with these kinds of games. I tend to come across them sporadically and have never shied away from them thinking the more bad players the better.

I am curious how people here feel about these games. Should they be avoided or not, and are there any tips they can think of regarding strategy?

If you are talking full ring I think it's still pretty easy to beat just playing somewhat tight. Sure your top of range hands wont win as often but the pots will be much bigger when they do, and it should more than make up for the extra suckouts. I'd tend to fold the bottom parts of my usual stealing range in these type of games.

I would still like to get in MW pots with my decent suited connectors though even if i have to pay many bets pre if like you say they have significant leaks post.

Your variance will be insane but that should include some monster winning sessions so it really shouldn't be a problem if you are well bankrolled for the game. These should likely be some of your highest EV games outside of a shorthanded game that is letting you run it over completely.

You want to see flops in position so loosen up in the last few seats. Preflop mistakes aren't that big of a deal since you're not adopting this strategy for all games.

If the game remains wild on the flop, all pairs are going to play better than suited connectors since they most often flop very well or make easy folds. Suited connectors are still OK but just because you might play 98s on the button for a raise doesn't mean you should cc T7s in the hj. Give yourself the best chance to flop well and play your equity accordingly.

Generally what minimum VPIP you'd assign to maniac's open at HJ? Hope I don't derail the thread...

I'm going to need the location of said 1/2 game in order to appropriately answer the question.

But seriously, you can't just play tight. You're going to have to be looser than normal, but still tighter than the maniacs. Also always consider your odds. Many standard folds in small pots are going to be calls in large pots. You're going to end up at the river with no showdown value a lot. So obviously more variance.

I wouldn't avoid these games, but I could see why someone that doesn't play very often would want to if results were important to them.

I was thinking about this too. What would be your default cutoff for low pairs in late position in say a 3-5 way 3bet pot in front of ya?

Assuming you don't know much about the players except that they will likely continue to be aggressive throughout the hand. So basically if we don't flop the set or OESD we will get forced out of flop most times.

This is pretty much how I approach it too. I try to get in cheap in late position with quite a few hands especially suited. I try to not overplay any kind of big ace in these games and play somewhat fit or fold.

Do some people think its good to become more aggressive in these games and still try and isolate players like normally advocated for? I have typically played these games somewhat passively and have wondered if it was the right thing to do.

I think a lot depends on your image. I've tried the snug approach in the maniac games and then find myself getting a surprising amount of turn or river folds when I bet. At that point I start adding in some bluffs/semis.

You should definitely consider trying to bluff through 2 people if you have such a tight image. You will often have to barrel the river to get the fold you need.

And when the bluff fails and you showdown your miss now you can go back to getting paid off.

You still have to play poker and note who is and isn't willing to showdown super light. They are clearly going to make it to the river with a lot of weak hands but will they call a bet?

And make sure you are getting in thinner vbets when you've got them chasing you down.

If you have to ask this then villian is probably not a maniac.

No. Just run good.

Games where 6+ see the flop for 3+ bets with Q6s J5s A2 must be among the most profitable ones (for clearing reasons)

Of course the swings in these type of games are quite large so better to avoid them if: this game doesn't run all the time and you are very affected by a big loss, and/or you don't have a proper bankroll for this game, and/or you aren't comfortable estimating equities (and acting accordingly), and/or you aren't playing at least your B+ game (for whatever reason, you think you run bad, are tilted)

Staying focused on this kind of game is very important, and it's easy to go into autopilot, which is terrible when the pot is huge by the turn. That's the reason I asked about holding A9s after 3 random limpers and a CO maniac raising, or holding KT after a maniac opens the HJ. Not all hands in these games are 9 way cap right away without anyone looking, so it's important to push your edges in good spots you may have missed.

When pots get huge trying to bluff against 2 villains is normally a bad idea. In lineups like this I've seen Q and J high river calls, so know the players tendencies and choose your battles wisely.

one thing to keep in mind is in a lot of these crazy games the action players will end up playing significantly better postflop than normal just by default. Basically they can play exactly the same postflop as normal except they are often getting 20-1 on a call/peel rather than 5-1 and basically every postflop call ends up being correct or closer to correct.

Good stuff.

I sometimes go into autopilot in these games after taking a bad beat or two instead of focusing and paying attention to who is doing what, who is on tilt from the last bad beat, who is trying to play better etc... I am pretty good at not tilting most of the time but I tend to tune out a little bit when things are going bad to avoid getting frustrated and getting sloppy (which is easy to do in these games and can be costly) and in these games I wrongly assume I can get away with playing ABC instead of focusing and exploiting tendencies of opponents.