I don't think this is unethical per se, but doesn't Bay 101 already have a regular 8/16 game? If so, and there is a game going, or even a list, it doesn't seem like they would be allowed to start another table on their own, of the same stakes.

They aren't playing 8/16, though, they're playing 80/160. They just agreed to rebate 90% away from the table.

Tell CDC and Bakku to quit being dicks so we don't have to read any more dumb threads about them.

Yeah, but are they being unethical dicks?

shouldn't you be posting about your Tesla in some NL forum? you're dead to us.

Sorry I changed teams bro. I still lurk though since one can never know when they will need to change back and start grinding hard for that .001bb/100 edge. Ok, I can't back that up. I know the answer is never.

I didn't mean to dredge up your abandonment issues. Have your therapist forward me the bill. Happy Holidays.

While waiting for a 20 game, a 40 game broke and I sat down and played HU w/ 50% back to the loser until I got a seat in the 20. Is that wrong?

What about someone paying someone elses time to start a game HU in hopes the game will fill?

I don't think this is wrong, but it would be better to just tell the manager you want to start a must move 20 game headsup. Of course this would only work in a competently managed poker room, while I'm assuming you were playing at Talking Stick, where it is understandable you would want to work around them.

How is that a better option when the goal is to try and keep the 40 going in case anyone walks in

don't have any opinion on the ethics, but i'm surprised to see so much nittery itt. i've never considered anything like this. sometimes you're in a high-variance spot. so what. gamble. you're in a casino. if i ever see anyone doing this, i will just think they're wimps and edge seekers, but i wouldn't really question they're credibility.

That wasn't that_pope's goal, he said he wants to play 20. And I assume he isn't going to play 40 even if someone else comes in. Seems more likely that another 20 would fill up.

You've missed the point

This

Nothing unethical about it imo. I'm also sure that if you heard them say they were going to play 8/16 in case more 80 players arrived, and you also wanted to play 8/16 and would then go back to playing 80 if an 80 player showed up, they would want you to, as it's more likely a new player will join a 3 handed game than a Hu match. And no, if someone wanted to play 8/16 but not 80, then this is not the game for you, it's an 80 game.

I think there are two potential ethical issues here, though there's no evidence to support that either problem occurred.

The first has to do with the team of two players advertising by playing intentionally poorly. You heard about this stuff online. Two people playing fishy/terrible poker at a table, with a secret "giveback" arrangement. Some unsuspecting 3rd party sits at the best game in the world. Based on the freely available (but false) information that these two guys are fish, he actually sits in an amazingly tough game. The two regs doing this avoid the swings of playing crazy by secretly playing for no money due to settling up later. In one of Bart's podcasts Limon has a good bit on this practice.

The second issue is in the partnership aspect of givebacks at all. Sure in the ideal statement, the two regs playing by themselves at a table where they already paid time has no impact on anyone. Who cares if they go back to the parking lot and settle up their 80/160 HU match with 90% rebate to the loser? It is between them, as long as once a non-partner sits the game goes back to being square. First issue here would be that this arrangement is hidden. Could that hidden partnership continue on to 3 or 4 handed? These guys are chummy enough to chop up 3 or 4K in the parking lot on a quiet agreement. Now they won't softplay each other or slightly collude in a 3 or 4 handed game? Let's say they're great guys and 100% won't, the optics are still terrible. I sit with two crushers 4 handed, and get crushed. On my way out to the parking garage, I see them settling stacks of 100's but I'm assured this was just their giveback deal from the HU session? I'm sure most people wouldn't feel cheated.

So sure. There is no problem with 2 guys making whatever HU arrangement they want while playing out hands at a table they've already paid for. Your table, do what you like. I'd still be concerned about those two problems above and the atmosphere you create in the room. Even if it 100% doesn't create any problems, it creates the perception of teams. I guess if you had to do this stuff, it seems best that it be completely out in the open because secret arrangements are worse. What does it do to the long term health of your games if it gets out that there are teams who split up the table with hidden deals?

DougL, I agree with you 100%, but the reality of the poker world is that there's an insane amount of action swapping/piece taking/undisclosed shady **** that goes on among players who sit in the same cash games. It's all wrong, but it happens all the time, and the perpetrators aren't even viewed as doing something unethical by the majority of the poker community. The situation described here doesn't even register on the scale of shady **** that goes on in a poker room.

I think I know both of the guys and don't think they were doing anything wrong. It just seemed like everyone here was saying "super standard, not ever any problem", so wanted to point out that there were potential problems. Is it "shady" or beyond normal stuff, no. However, it isn't like no-brainer standard and good stuff, if only for how it looks. A reasonable person could object, and not for the reason of "that's a fun 8/16 game that I'm not allowed to play in". Who cares about that part in the least?

If someone asked me "should I do this", I'd say no. Although ZOMG's point about getting in some cheap HUHU is great, I just wouldn't get involved in the side deal part of this. Someone who sees part of the transaction and doesn't understand and reasonably calls you a cheat -- you weren't but it sure looks that way.

lol. not reading through this. not unethical at all

I think this a good take on the situation. Like yea, on paper, logically, I guess its not "illegal" or unethical, but in the real world with humans and stuff it just looks incredibly bad.I hate to think about how much of this stuff goes on around me that im not privy to.

just to be clear on your stance. They're not doing anything wrong, just something that looks wrong, but you'd hate to think it's going on in a way that has so far gone unnoticed by you?

Not certain on this point.

If you're asking "do you have a problem with secret cash arrangements by regulars in your game?" Then yes. It is like husbands and wives in cash games -- if a couple sits down, no problem. We all know they're married. If there's something to adjust to, we adjust to it. Let's say I come into town, sit in the 80, and you have half my action. Is it different if we pretend not to know each other? If everyone knows it? It isn't about unnoticed by me. It is about secretly chopping up people's equity, or the incentive to do so. If you own half my win/loss, give me a scouting report on the lineup, and we're strangers at the table, is that cool to everyone here? Maybe we play 100% legit at all times, so it should be OK?

Maybe I'm wrong and it is 100% totally fine. It just seems like we had two pages of "you'd be an idiot to have a problem with this." There are potential ethical issues that are hard to spot.

Are we talking about secret cash agreements now? If that's the case you can probably ignore my last post. I thought we were still talking about a heads up game with a rebate

Is handing over $3k in the garage after the HU game a "secret cash agreement" or something else? If you play those guys 3 handed, lose $5k and see it, are you cool? If you say "well, since I know they were playing HUHU with a rebate, I'm fine after I think it trough. When I first saw it, it looked kind of bad and I was pissed for a minute" we're on the same page.

me 'you' or some guy 'you'?

Because me me is going to tell you that anybody who joins a heads up game and plays three handed 80 has already had ample to figure out if something is going on and if seeing them trade money later is the deciding factor then you're probably being a poor loser.

And then I'm going to draw scowls when I saw that any body who thinks any thing in the OP is unethical probably just hasn't spent enough time in games high enough that you have to work to keep them going a lot

Some guy they want to play with.