In a perfect world, everyone would be playing 100% for themselves and trying to maximize their winrate and not caring about who the money they win comes from. That's the only way a game can be 100% legit.

In the real world, there's various levels of team play/collusion/whatever you want to call it going on, and if we tried to police all of it, we wouldn't have a game.

Checking it down once HU between friends is EXTREMELY common in most casinos and for the most part, nobody cares. It changes GTO play significantly in 3 way pots, to the advantage of the people who check it down, and it often does lead to adjustments that are unfair to the third player in the pot. But there's essentially nothing you can do about it beyond splitting up the players in question, and for the most part casino staff aren't even willing to do that because they don't understand that softplaying/checking it down is a form of cheating.

Here's another example of something super common among friends:
Example: Friend 1 bets the river, Friend 2 has the nuts next in and calls, you overcall (but wouldn't have called a raise). This kind of **** happens ALL the time. I've played hands more than once where someone has asked why Friend 2 just called with the nuts and the response was something like "Of course I just call! I don't want his (Friend 2) money!"

And if you complain about something like that to the floor and try to explain that it's collusion, chances are super high they'll just say "Friend 2, please don't do that anymore!" and then the game will continue so he can keep doing it all he wants.

Can you imagine a floor trying to tell a player that he has to try to win everyone else's money equally and that he can't favor his friends?

The point is, no game is ever 100% straight up, cheating happens, and a lot of the people cheating don't even know they're cheating. To protect your money and your mental health, you just need to pay attention, let the minor stuff slide, and if you see stuff that you think materially hurts you or other players at the table, you have to think about what you're going to do about it. Unfortunately there often aren't really any good solutions.


BTW, afaik, most casinos don't have rules against swapping action at the table or disclosing it, so they pretty much implicitly allow this kind of bull****.

Doug, I really think the two should be viewed mutually exclusive. If two people agree to givebacks after they leave the casino there is no rule that even could be created to stop them, but I don't think you can blindly assume that the deal automatically increases the odds they are willing to collude against other people. One is friends making deals with no other parties involved, the other is straight cheating other people.

Imagine two pairs of people. One pair are friends who have givebacks when HU, the other is a married couple who never playes heads up but always plays together. On that tiny bit of information which pair can you assume is of higher collusion risk? I think its very close, so I find them mutually exclusive.

This is basically the same as pausing the game while waiting for someone to show up. It's not unethical, but I understand why OP doesn't like it. The other two players are saying "We are only going to play as long as there's a sucker like you in the game."

I think they should just stop being huge nits and play 80 HU.

To me, it is more unethical for the floor if the floor allows you to do such a thing, especially if no other 8-16 game is going on and somebody wants to play 8-16 game.

I had this exact post drafted up and then didn't send cause I didn't want to sound condescending. But, yes, 100% this. This kind of stuff happens all the time to start and keep games going.

I suppose my wording was poor here. It's not unethical but I think it's rather unfriendly.

As for the people that feel they wasted their time reading this thread, I can't give you your time back. We can't all be lawyers or engineers or doctors or scientists. Someone has to bring up the rear and I guess that's me. I'm not about to apologize for not being as smart as you guys though.

This is the objection that seems completely silly to me. Two guys at a table who paid like $9/half hour time to have the table. They're playing out the time they paid for. No 8/16 player has any right to care, because it isn't remotely their game. You're saying you should be allowed into the high stakes section to play it? You are, at 80/160. The game won't break.
In the ideal world, you're correct. I don't disagree with the "this is the kind of stuff that goes on to keep games going sometimes, you just have to understand". I just don't live in the perfect world and we've played in games that weren't 100% square. Again, I don't think anyone at the game in the OP did anything bad.
It is kind of what they're telling me, there's a world of high stakes deal-making that no 8/16 player has any capital in. It is why if the action player wants the game to go to 100/200 or 200/400, if you'd vote no you're expected to leave rather than object. Again, it is their table because they literally paid for it. Since the plaque says "80/160" and they'll play you for those stakes, if you wander up to the high section that's how it is going down. It also has to do with them not knowing/trusting you to settle up later.

If your 80-160 game breaks but you want badly to play anyway, you can wait. Stay at the table, chitchat with your friend, talk to the dealer or take a short break (by leaving the chips at the table, though), come back and see what is going on.

You don't have to make trouble or create confusion out of nothing by playing a virtual lower game. More than unethical, I think it is a monkey business.

Also, not allowing people to play the game which you are actually playing is condescending.

So it is calling names on other people's comments.

Again, regarding the OP's question, everything is up to the floor.

Just my opinion.

Names? Also, is there a post in the world that doesn't become about your feelings being hurt? I'm sure there must be, but I can't recall one.

I am sensitive but not supersensitive. I just want to play a fair game. No worries. I have big shoulders.

Doug,

I agree that doing things that look shady are often just as bad as things that actually are shady.

However, I think regs at the Bay 80 are at least pretty good about being decent people. I've not worried about people chopping it up in the parking lot.

(Specific examples deleted but if you want I can PM you stuff I've seen that makes me think that.)

There is no trouble or confusion because everybody will know it's a 80-160. they aren't playing with $2 chips and if abykne asks what the game is they will tell them 80-160.

If you just sit there and chat with each other the dealer gets screwed out of tips and the house won't let you keep the table without paying rake.

It's nice in places like Vegas and LA where you can just spread some OFC and kill time waiting but it's much tougher in other places and I think perfectly fine.

That's fine. Under the specific circumstances I don't have a problem with that. I didn't have a problem in the first place, anyway.

From an ethical point of view, regarding players, this is a miniscule or not an issue at all.

You see way, way more unethical stuff that happens very often when you play live. But as I said in another thread,

"If you want the rainbow you have to deal with rain".

I don't know who said that first but I always follow that line.

By the way, very good, thoughtful post Jon_locke!

Perhaps naive (I don't play that high or live there...)

Wouldn't it be in their best interest to settle up soon after the game goes 3-handed? If one of the HU guys leans back away from the table and passes the other some $1000 chips, before the 3h action really starts, is the house going to object? If so can they both take a restroom break?


Third best would be just to wait until you're off the property. Then no one who cares is going to see you.

My two cents. Unlike LA this game can't drop limits and raise limits based on who's there - not easily I think. It's a time rake. This is mostly fine.

There are other situations which I think are far more offensive like always checking it down against your friend once you get heads up.

It's almost certain that the two are friends so if they want to settle up the following Tuesday at a Phil's in Palo Alto, they will text each other.

No doubt, which is why the parking garage thing seems a bit far fetched. But there are arguments that transparency is good here. I'm skeptical the third player sitting down is going to care about people passing $1000 chips before 3h starts, but again, I don't play that high and am only asking out of curiosity about the norms of this game.

I mean, it's just generally a non-issue. 90%+ of the time somebody sitting down to make a big game 3 handed is another reg in the game and people just settle right away. If it's a rando, I dunno....Sometimes people settle later I guess.

This whole thread is crazy. There is nothing even remotely sketchy going on here. Nothing needs to be hidden, or handled carefully. This is literally nothing. High stakes games start and stop. When games break down sometimes people stay to see if they can get it going again. Instead of just sitting there doing nothing, gamblers gamble. This isn't so secret game or private affair. If two people are left any player from mega fish to super star wizard if going to ask if they want to play heads up because it better than sitting on your ass for a half hour. It's usually done at reduced stakes because not many people are comfortable with high stakes huhu but most people will **** around for s tenth the stakes just for fun.

This doesn't make it an 8/16 game. They don't want to play 8/16. They don't need to hide anything because they're doing nothing wrong. Nothing looks suspicious because any body who plays in a game that breaks regularly is used to gambling on all kinds of stupid **** to pass the time hoping new meat joins

How has this attitude worked out in Las Vegas? Enough "new meat" joining the "start and stop" games to keep them running reliably and well?

It actually works just fine, just like it does everywhere in the world.

keep on trollin moron

You mean so long as the fat guy doesn't step any harder?