25/50 full game, table is generally laggy with thinking players. No pros but regulars.

Lag female prop limps mp (very rare she limps). I raise q10o in the hj. Cu, a loose, tilting male 3 bets. Small and bb, both lag females call, as does female prop in mp. 15 sb.

Flop k94 rainbow. Checks to cu who bets. Sb 2. Bb 3. I have a gut shot. Any world I can cc 3 bets here, or is this an instamuck? Do i factor implied odds if I hit gutshot?

Some background: Cu c bets 100%, sb is capable of trying to isolate with mediocre hand, even a high, but bb def will push her edge and maximize value.

*be nice im learning

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Fold pre. Laggy table, you're going to end up in these 3bet/4bet pots often; you should tighten up your iso range. I'm tempted to fold QJo here as well.

On the flop, lets take a look at the best case scenario. You call 3sb, everyone else calls. You're putting up 3sb to win 24sb. That's 8:1. You need 11.5:1 to recoup your losses, which means 34.5 sb. (10.5 more sbs you need to win). That's 5 1/2 BB on the turn and river. To breakeven.

This is a slamdunk fold. There are multiple other-case scenarios (you end up calling 4sb on the flop and others end up folding). Realize you can hit your straight and still lose to backdoor flushes and fullhouses.

Pre-flop is definitely a fold. There are spots where you can iso QTo from the hj, but this is not one of them. There is a tilt monkey and 2 LAGs left to act, and it sounds like the limper is not too bad of a player and will give you hell post-flop. This can be an iso if CO/BTN are tightish and the limper is a bit worse. The goal when isolating is to end up with position and to rarely get 3bet... if we fail to achieve these goals, we are in a bad spot without a stronger hand. We need to hit boards hard against armies of LAGs, but QTo mainly makes medium-slightly strong hands that don't want heavy action.

The flop is a clear fold, but it can be confusing for some players because it does appear that we have the implied odds to keep going. But we are going to be putting in 4 bets much (probably most) of the time when someone caps. And then we are going to be getting "proper" odds to continue on the turn quite often. Drawing to a nut hand and hitting is cool. Drawing into a situation where we have the same crappy hand again with great odds while sandwiched between LAGs who may or may not raise is not cool. As ChocolateMoo mentioned, a possible set or 2p makes things worse as do backdoor flushes. These are not a huge deal, but they do matter when we are drawing thin... imagine trying to figure out what to do if we hit on the turn and take 2 to the face on a paired or 3 flush river. We probably have to call against these players, but it really sucks. People are also slightly more likely to have a J in their hand as opposed to low cards which makes our chances of hitting slightly worse. And if we pair on the turn, we really just want to puke if more than 1 bet goes in.

These are perfectly reasonable questions btw... I guarantee that plenty of players in this forum would misplay both pre-flop and the flop whether they admit it or not.

+1, to all of this. To add, OP, in LAGgy games, you definitely do not want to be the one putting yourself in spots to play for low equity draws MW. You'd much rather hands that can flop strong top pairs or strong draws

Like others said, instamuck and fold pre

Assume at least 1 jack is dead, and even if it hits on the turn we will be vulnerable to boats/bigger straight catching up

Thanks guys

I think that overlimping pre could be considered. I would certainly guess it is better than raising in this lineup. I do overlimp some hands in games like this when someone limps but isolating isn't really going to work. Suited aces come to mind.

Is the reasoning here to basically play more fit-fold, since we're going to be multi-jammed postflop? I think I typically don't adjust enough in these situations. I reflexively iso QTo in these kinds of spots all the time, since open limpers are begging for it. (ok, I admit it, I'll iso two napkins here a lot too)

I'd honestly throw up a little having to overlimp suited aces against one open-limper.

I think in a game like this overlimping is better than folding, and you don't really have to worry about balance. Can throw in smaller pairs and suited aces and stuff like K8s.