Do They Know I Know What They Know? - Page 2 - Medium Stakes Poker Forum

DesertCat · 07-21-2012, 10:46 PM

Quote:

So in short, how often do you think solid player FSDR's here? If the answer is "never", go ahead and fold. Between cold-calling and 3betting, I like 3betting to protect our hand. If 4bet, you likely have 2 outs (if that), so you can fold to a 4!.

A FSDR means I likely win, but also that no more bets go into pot, if I had history with solid player I could weight it in his range and 3 bet or fold more confidently, but I have little. If i raise, it's likely that worse hands fold, though given my hand is vulnerable that's not bad.

I was so flummoxed by his raise that I decided to see showdown cheap, but now I think I should have called and lead safe rivers. That way I keep UTG putting in money in, but can abort a paired river.

Six Finger Nate · 07-21-2012, 11:38 PM

Hand 2 I like a turn 3bet, and in my opinion if anyone is thinking of folding any suited hand for one bet closing the action in a multiway pot they're folding their BB too much.

Hand 1 not sure I like the preflop 3bet. We've already got a great situation with multiple players seeing a flop with a hand we can flop a set with. Why would you want to get heads up with an old man raising from the small blind? I understand the dead money, but I don't think I like it putting in multiple bets in this spot preflop.

And not to be a nit, but I don't like the turn raise either. I don't like putting in multiple turn bets with a hand that I might have really terrible equity with. I also don't think you're folding out anything better.

ChocolateMoo · 07-22-2012, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DesertCat

If i raise, it's likely that worse hands fold, though given my hand is vulnerable that's exactly what I would want.

FYP. There is seriously nothing in their ranges that you want to keep in at this point; a fold is a victory. If 4 bet, do you really think there's anything you can beat?

**BigBadBabar** · 07-22-2012, 10:12 AM

@moo suited cards are a decent step up here as compared to the offsuit bigcard/littlecard combos. there are a lot more flops where you flop a 3flush and an over and can peel getting some insane price, etc

DesertCat · 07-22-2012, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChocolateMoo

FYP. There is seriously nothing in their ranges that you want to keep in at this point; a fold is a victory. If 4 bet, do you really think there's anything you can beat?

There is only one hand that 4 bets me. These guys don't hand read, fear the nuts, so if I raise I'm likely just called by most better hands. And if my 3b is called I should check fold river, but that's hard to do in such a big pot so I risk losing 4 bets when I'm beat.

And I should be beat here quite a bit. T8, 55, 22, 88, are plausible for "solid player" since we dont have lots of history. His raise on a dry board vs. a guy who should 100% have a strong top pair hand weights solid players raises towards even stronger hands. The same hands plus TT are reasonable for UTG.

By calling I give worse hands up to 8 outs each to improve, but in combination they should only have 10 total. AT and JJ, AT and KT, etc.

COCOCHANEL · 07-22-2012, 04:28 PM

I'm three betting my 8-2 on the turn on this board and praying the "solid" player doesn't show down 5-5 or 10-10 and also praying the board doesn't pair 5's or 10's because solid villain can often show down hands like J-J or A-T here, and, obv., we don't want to get counterfeited. So I'm not folding (duh), calling is weak and we lose way too much value by just calling, which means it's a 3!.

DesertCat · 07-22-2012, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by COCOCHANEL

I'm three betting my 8-2 on the turn on this board and praying the "solid" player doesn't show down 5-5 or 10-10 and also praying the board doesn't pair 5's or 10's because solid villain can often show down hands like J-J or A-T here, and, obv., we don't want to get counterfeited. So I'm not folding (duh), calling is weak and we lose way too much value by just calling, which means it's a 3!.

I think you are right. Running equities I'm over 42% on turn (giving solid player only T9s and JTo as their 1 pair hands) which surprises me on such a dry board. And I should be able to knock out UTG to improve my equit to 50-50 (or more if solid player has more 1 pair hands) vs. solid player.

gaming_mouse · 07-22-2012, 08:54 PM

Hand 2 easy 3
Hand 1 fold turn
BBB is right

**Joe Tall** · 07-22-2012, 11:41 PM

While all the discussion about hand #2 when hand #1 seems to be misplayed on every street?

DC - (now I only scanned the posts) but can you give a reason for your 3 bet preflop?

We have a loose passive game with a raise from a player who has a likely very small range. Call flop well, drag big.

nonsimplesimon · 07-22-2012, 11:55 PM

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Originally Posted by DesertCat

20 live. Two hands that involve a villain I have pegged as a solid player.

The world limps. If not the world, let's say 6 players, including solid player in CO. Super loose, kind of whacky, and usually passive old man raises small blind. I 3b BB with 66. The world calls, except for solid player, who back-caps, now the world calls.

Flop QQ5ss board. The world checks.

Turn Tc, old man leads, I raise.

Hand 2. Different passive old man raises UTG, 2 cold calls, solid player calls, the world calls, let's say 6 total, and I complete the BB with 82s.

Flop T52r with one of my suit, checked to UTG, who bets, only 3 callers, I overcall with a plan to check-raise a deuce or 8, or go runner-runner my suit.

Turn 8. I check, initiating phase one of my master plan, UTG bets, fold, fold, solid player raises, I stand up on my chair, grasp my head and scream WTF!?!

I think the 3b OTF is bad in hand 1. Edit: I'm on the fence with the turn raise. I think its a creative play and since you were a 3b pf I think its - not bad. I'd probably fold but I wouldn't have 3b pre either .... so I can't say either way.

In hand 2 yes fold ott.

DesertCat · 07-23-2012, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Tall

While all the discussion about hand #2 when hand #1 seems to be misplayed on every street?

DC - (now I only scanned the posts) but can you give a reason for your 3 bet preflop?

We have a loose passive game with a raise from a player who has a likely very small range. Call flop well, drag big.

I already admitted the 3b was a mistake, obviously I though I could fold some (creating dead money with a good equity hand) and possibly get headsup with position vs. a terrible player whose raising range is not that small.

Obviously I was wrong to think any limpers would fold, and calling was the far superior option. but fortunately I made up for it by playing flop/turn perfectly, if not brilliantly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nonsimplesimon

I think the 3b OTF is bad in hand 1. Edit: I'm on the fence with the turn raise. I think its a creative play and since you were a 3b pf I think its - not bad. I'd probably fold but I wouldn't have 3b pre either .... so I can't say either way.

In hand 2 yes fold ott.

Folding turn in hand 2 is throwing away a ton of equity in a huge pot, unless you can be sure solid player is only raising 2 pair/sets, and can never be making a FSDR. If solid player has any one pair hands in their range it's a snap call if not raise.

gaming_mouse · 07-23-2012, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DesertCat

Folding turn in hand 2 is throwing away a ton of equity in a huge pot, unless you can be sure solid player is only raising 2 pair/sets, and can never be making a FSDR. If solid player has any one pair hands in their range it's a snap call if not raise.

this is an understatement. his play just doesn't make much sense. he shouldn't have TT bc of pf. he could potentially have decided to slowplay 55 bc of his good relative position (but this should be discounted) or decided to wait for a safe turn with T8 since his equity can swing alot (also discounted). something like J9s trying to make a random move is possible. nothing really fits though, a fsdr is possible, getting cute with whatever is possible, it's just too ****ing weird to fold

Slide · 07-23-2012, 02:54 PM

Hand 1, I kinda want to just lead the flop. Isn't CO's hand here like always a T9s that isn't betting unless he's flopped trips? Seems really bad to give this many people a 4 card flop with our hand. If SB just leads his big PP's on the flop, I think your turn raise is good.

Hand 2, I'm definitely continuing on the turn. I think if we know UTG will fold a big PP facing a 3!, we should 3!. Otherwise, cold call, donk safe river might be reasonable, still might be correct to 3-bet.

Agree with gaming_mouse re:solid player's hand doesn't make much sense, we should try to get to showdown.

jesse8888 · 07-23-2012, 11:03 PM

hand 1 is an abortion imo.

hand 2 you should probably 3 bet. i mean, you did get there, right?

ChuckFinley · 07-24-2012, 12:24 PM

+1 on hand 1 = abortion.

Hand 2 to me is a call and hope situation. As mentioned not a lot of hands make sense so I am not folding in such a big pot. But I actually think T8s and 88 are his most likely hands if he is in fact solid, lack of combinations not withstanding. Also 3betting & getting out old guy's KK doesn't protect against counterfit outs if the raiser has a T.