20 live. Somewhat tight (for a 20) player raises lojack, bad player calls CO, i call QTo in BB. Flop T95cc. Knowing LJ will check back almost always multiway when he whiffs, what should I do? CO might be a little stabby, but what if he isn't?

i'd still expect co to bet, so i'd c/r.

I'm a LAGTAG that creates the illusion of lagtardation (as Steve can attest) and get people MSLHE to way overplay their hands against me. Why not just bet here with the intention of 3 betting? Even if you bet and the LJ peels a 6 outer and the CO does whatever (f/c/r), I don't think there's any catastrophically bad outcomes here. Other than a flop checkthrough.

how else to battle mr check back than to either:
bet flop.
or
check flop, check raise turn.

Seems a lot better to bet the flop against this opponent.

so the guys play pretty tight (possibly overly tight) and raises from the lojack so his range should be fairly sung. Then he only c-bets the flop when he has it so it looks like if we check and he bets we have an incredibly easy check call (CR if other guy gets....

So when he c-bets we are in bad shape vs his range and the 3 responses are (1) cr flop (2) b-3bet flop (3) check-raise turn?

I don't get it. You guys are overly concerned with how to exploit mr check-back then completely ignore what it means when MR check back doesn't check back

Let's ignore the 3rd player for time being (although that does help out overlay) if the guy that never C bets when he misses still Cbets AK 1/2 time, KQ 1/2 the time. Has A9 and 9-10s, JTo and JTs in his range here and also c bets 77-88 we are still a 55-45 dog.

If he only c bets, JTs+, A9+ and AK 100% we are a 3-2 dog vs that range.
Yes our equity goes up little bit with third player but not enough to warrant jamming (and I'm assuming everyone takes the lines they suggested if other guy folds anyways)......

But give the third player a r age of exactly 22 (basically drawing dead) and we are only.l breakeven 3 ways and when we cr and Lj has it he 3 bets and other guy folds and we get in 3 bets vs a range that crushes us...... Or third guy had a hand like JQ so best case give him 2 hands exactly, 22 and JQ and we are only 30% 3 ways

FWIW, I meant to bet-call or bet-fold.

Pretty sure the guy suggesting check-raise meant if the other guy bet, not the pf raiser. And I'm assuming the other guy meant check-raise turn if flop checked through, because hoping the pf raiser will now bet even his whiffs. Can't really get behind that plan, but I do like check-raising the other guy if he bets flop.

i totally skimmed over the "tight" part and thought he was in the hj. but, yeah i was implying i'd c/r either player assuming a standard hj range.

It doesn't really matter much what his preflop range is. Even if it was typical, a check-raise would be bad if he checks back his unpaired hands on flop.

If he really gives you that much information when you check, of course you should check...

maybe with your typical hj range.

If a group of players ranging from above average to strong can't figure out a solution to this problem against this player type with this hand, then it kind of displays how overrated betting 100% of your range for balance is.

that makes sense. I agree with that.

Fwiw, I don't think this villain is doing anything wrong by checking back some hands. This board doesn't favor his range very heavily and it may not make much sense to cbet A7s with no clubs. That being said, he should def be betting stuff like AQ (protect the potentially best hand) and KJ (decent equity and unlikely to win the pot after a check) imo.

The thing is that CO is in the hand and might also bet. While villain may check, CO will often bet allowing us to check-raise and force villain off of big aces and gutshots. And when villain does bet, we can just go into c/c down mode because we are too far behind his range to c/r if I am understanding this read correctly. We can even get away from our hand by the river in some scenarios... this is how to exploit this guy.

If CO is super passive, donking probably makes more sense though. Donking allows us to face the portion of villain's range that we crush. If we check, we only face the portion that is doing very well against our hand. Value/protection/etc. I would definitely donk if CO were in the SB instead.

Both of these players sound too bad to worry about being balanced. Just exploit them to death and they should always be a step or two behind.

There's a lot of semi-wiffs here, KJ, QJ... does Mr. check-back check on the draw? If so, I bet. If not, I still try to go for a check-raise. Also, Mr. stabby may have semi-wiffed, and I assume he bets. All K's and J's, and even A's are scare cards.

Why would you want to "combat" a tightish player who checks back a lot ? I would be pretty happy letting him continue to do this

I think checking to get more info on CO's range is too risky esp if CO's range does not hit this flop and he checks back way more than he should.

I like donking a lot more on a board like 875cc but not on a board like T95cc.

This flop should hit CO's range. I can think of AT, KT, A9, K9, 99+. Hands that completely whiffed but with decent equity are AK, AQ, AJ. There's also hands like QJ and KJ which has tons of equity.

However with this hand holding against this specific villain, I really hate to k/r against a guy who's range is polarized. I think the two lines I'd pick from is k/c k/c k/c or donk and barrel again with bluffs and thin values. I think donking is better.