So this is the third str8 time I'm playing and we got the coach and player sitting side by side. When one is not in the hand, they see each other's cards and the coach provides analysis after the hand is over. One occasion, the coach stooped behind the player, saw his cards every hand, then whispered in his ear after each hand...... Feels very gross... Thought?

What's the problem exactly?

I played with Paul Magriel in a small stakes NLHE game in Vegas and he was doing this with some chic. She was taking all kinds of notes on what he said and they'd discuss every hand each of them played. Aside from it being annoying and them doing a bunch of glass tapping (everybody could hear), I didn't see anything wrong with it.

Sorry, I need all the help I can get.

I've never seen this happen ever

gross. haven't these people ever heard of the internet?

To be clear, the OP reads like during the hand that each is playing on his own. Then after the hand is over, they're discussing how the student played? That seems fine, so

Sitting to gather in the same game side by side....

In my ideal world, no one would ever talk poker strategy at the table. People would interact with each other, making every casino game just like the home games you played in high school. Since the real world isn't like that, this isn't terrible.

Why would you care? Everyone at the table knows they're here together. You get tons of free information about them. Since you get to overhear their thoughts, you're way ahead of them. Wouldn't you much prefer this to them sitting in the game and secretly texting strategy to each other. Them publicly being coach and student in the game is fine. You'd prefer that everyone is talking playoffs, but that aside, no issues.

Team poker feels wrong

To get anyone to buy in to what you're saying, you'll have to clearly say the part that is bad. You might convince me that they're doing stuff that is horrible. Their discussing hands after the fact, in public, and where you can overhear them doesn't seem remotely bad. Am I missing something?

What's going on probably wouldn't bother me, either. However, I can see that for some people there would be the (possibly unconscious) question of whether they are cooperating in some form during the play of the hands. As described, there is no evidence of it, but would it be obvious? Might they softplay each other, or act as a springboard for the other? Probably not, but softplaying between friends is fairly common.

I would say, Don't Panic (tm), but do pay attention.

If they're showing cards to each other, anyone else at the table should be able to see their cards also after the hand is over, correct?

Having student and coach playing side by side doesn't help game. Student is going to try to play optimum which is bad for game. If student misplays hand coach is there to tell him how stupid he was which again is bad for game.

Also coach is not going to play perfect game strategy against student. Coach will not three bet as much and will probably fold more hands when student seems to have iniative.

Ethically I guess it's okay but I think it's a subtle form of collusion.

I've changed my mind about this, actually due to hearing it explained clearly by Limon. If you and I sit in a game and pretend not to know each other, we have secret information. We're probably doing subtle stuff, even unconsciously, that changes the game. That's wrong. Think about smaller places where husbands and wives play together. They play differently against each other, and every conscious person in the game knows how and how to adjust. No problem. Same here. Coach and student or just best buddies, it is out in the open and fine. Any time you see two friends in the game and worry about this possible subtle collusion, think about how much worse it would be if secret. Human beings have relationships. People have friends in the game. As long as it is in the open and everone can adjust, I have no issues.

Contrast this to one of you having half my action in secret.

I guess the next question is, you're then against friends playing together? Is it the coaching in some way that breaks a rule?

I think the worst thing about it is talking strat at the table, also showing others that there is such thing as poker coaching. I am sure it is quite detrimental for a good, fun gaming atmosphere.

Clearly this is true but not sure what practical solution there is.

Clear the rail!

I'm sure it makes people uncomfortable at the table, both bad players and OP alike, that's probably enough justification for the floorman to ask them to quit it.

good post.

There is a lot of this in the mid stakes world, friends playing together, people taking pieces. A lot of the "collusion" is subtle unconscious stuff. It's hard to say if a player has 25% of player B action that when they are in a hand together things aren't going to be changed.

I don't think there is a good answer. There usually isn't enough support(at least in the east) for multiple games at said limits, and if there is it's must move.

Just have to be aware it's happening and adjust.


In respect to the OP, officially as long as it's post hand I don't think there is anything on could do about it. During the hand obviously one should call the floor every time and make a big fuss about it.

I suppose you could demand to see cards that are shown to the coach but that's probably going make you look bad. I doubt it will help but, maybe you take coach aside. Let him know that it's bad for the game to be talking strategy in depth at the table.(I think basic stuff is fine, and insult when someone brings it up to out and out avoid it. )

It's the showing cards part I do not like. What would table start to look like if everyone started flashing there cards EVERY hand to the person next to them.....

Completely standard? Bad players love to show in place where show one show all isn't nittily enforced.

Here's your first adjustment, they aren't likely playing hard against each other. Until you see otherwise, believe agressive action vs each other is strong values. Keep an eye to make sure that they aren't whipsawing people out of pots, but assume tentatively that their actions when both are in the pot aren't bluffing one another.

There are two things going on here: the "we are basically on the same side" issue and the "talking about strategy at the table" issue. The first is a minor ethical issue, on the same level as not checkraising the hunky guy in seat three because you'd like to hook up with him. The second isn't about ethics at all, but about stewardship of the game ecology.

Interestingly, the first worse if it is covert than if it is open; but the second one is worse out in the open than if it is covert. If the other players aren't aware of the coaching and strategy talk, it doesn't do anywhere near the harm it does if they know it is happening, let alone learn something from it.

multiple players in pot getting check-check after field narrows..... I like both players alot, and don;t mind playing them both or HU in a pot, it just looks/feels not good to me to see it..... At Omaha8 game, regs get very upset when someone shows hand before folding..