did you just make up most of this stuff? at what point does OP ask can I win this way playing pre-flop? He said how he plays pre-flop says he plays not great postflop and asks what stakes he can win at.

Yes he does but the discussion seems more heavily weighted to if his preflop play can win in bigger games or is it too tight. He puts the postflop play as a sidenote/stipulation saying basically "let's assume i play decent postflop for arguments sake can i win playing this way preflop?"

Also regardless what OP's original question/motive was more on preflop or not when you responded to my original question today it was obvious i was discussing the preflop play. So when you rebutted me you were trying to disprove my preflop point by instead telling me about postflop stuff that had nothing to do with what i was discussing.

post-flop is going to be far more important than adding a few hands here or there pre-flop when you find yourself in a game with 6-7 other people that play equally well/correct pre-flop.

Whether or not to open K9o vs KTo in a certain situation isn't going to make a big enough difference to account for the skill difference that 5-6 people may have on you postlfop.
There are lots of people that play solid/tight pre-flop and will win in ceratin lineups but won't win in tougher games.

I'm not making an argument on whether preflop or postflop is more important to beating bigger games. I'm stating the preflop game he describes is not too tight and in fact a very good strategy imo that would be better than most playing in those or any limit games. That if anyone thinks he would get destroyed playing like that preflop i would be to differ. I could be wrong but that's what i'm discussing. Didn't mean for it to come off as an attack if it did.

This is what I agree with and disagree with. Nobody said his pf strategy is bad, seems pretty reasonable. At 20-40 it is better than most, at 40-80 it ks better than some for sure. At bigger games it won't be better than most and that's where the skill difference postlfop will add up to getting crushed.

At 20-40 you can rely on your equity edges preflop to make up for poorer play postlfop, but when you play different they are gonna play exactly the same as you pre Except open up in instances where they can exploit certain players/spots and the edge you had from playing right/correct pre disappears

I also think it's a weird question OP asked bexusse he posts a pretty solid straw than asks can his win

I was just speaking generally to how the nit-tags do in the games I play in. None of the winning 80+ players can be described as nit-tags. The player described in OP would likely do a little better. I agree that someone who played a little too tight pre but perfectly post would do well, but there is a correlation between preflop and postflop play. It's harder to play well postflop if your range is narrow and well defined.

Isn't it easier to play well, just not as profitable?

Ummmm . . . Yes I suppose that is more accurate.

I think this is basically right.

Remember, plenty of ostensibly "good" live players have leaks that are directly related to impatience. A nitty TAG may be theoretically exploitable by skilled, disciplined players, but a lot of typical live players who think of themselves as good are actually going to be donating to the nits because they are going to playing way too many hands and engaging in way too much FPS against tight, showdown bound ranges. Over time, the disciplined nit is going to make some money because of the foolishness that goes on around him or her in a typical 20/40 or even 40/80 game.

You are joking, right?

Was gonna respond to this as well as its something I see written a lot but just not true. Yes live 20 is super soft but there are certainly lots of solid to very solid to expert players playing it. Which is just something you aren't going to run into live. Not to mention there are lots of love players that have some big leaks but do a lot of thing right as well and have lots of experience. They may cold call you pre but will play way better post than a micro stakes online player making similar pf mistakes.
Also there are lots of places where 20-40 may be he biggest limit game going. When that's the case you are gonna have a lot of very solid players in the game making it pretty tough.


I think people try to compare limits live to online and it's tough to do, partially becusse the skill set it somewhat different. There are lots of things that experienced live players will do that Internet players won't be able to and often compensates for their weak fundamentals where online players wth same leaks have nothing to compensate for

Well, you are right that it isn't a direct comparison (though I will say, I have NEVER played in any live game that was consistently as tough as the $1/$2 games on PokerStars which I played in before Black Friday).

It's different leaks. Online players' leaks are often leaks related to either lack of strategy/math or playing too many tables (and thus not having good/any reads despite playing 100's of hands against the same opponent, misclicking, making decisions on autopilot, etc.).

Whereas live players' leaks are often leaks related to impatience and indiscipline-- not wanting to keep folding when they are card dead or where the only playable hands they get dealt are out of position or where a tight player has raised or 3-bet; not wanting to give up on hands where a flop is unfavorable and hits the opponent's range; going on tilt due to short term unfavorable variance; trying to "outplay" the fish who is catching cards and beating them like a drum; fancy play syndrome; etc.

Both games can be characterized as "really easy" (don't know about 1c/2c, though, those games are closer to a "joke"), but the leaks are different and thus there's no direct comparison.

This just isn't true. Imagine your 1-2 win rate if you paid 30
Cents per 100 hands or whatever for time take rated than whatever it is.

I went to the buffet a while back with a guy who's been a live pro for 20+ years. He made the same bold claim about his smart brother and the current 2-5 plo games (maybe he said two months, but still). Some of smartest people I know have tried to learn poker and just can't grasp pot odds or have emotional issues about gambling/tilt. It takes a lot of knowledge of poker and experience to be able to walk away from a loss and truly be honest with oneself about running bad vs mistakes. They'd see a fish win 4 days in a row and start second guessing everything they know. I think if that claim became a prop it would even require odds...even if they felt they could play well they would need to run above average at first. 0-5 in first five sessions? happens to the best of them, but the best would handle it differently, no?

Live is just different. Just about any limit live circumstances can arise where 4,5,6 or more horrible >60% vpip rec players happen to be at the same table. This never happens online, multitabling means even the low limits have such a high percentage of total seats taken by regs that a game just can't become that good.

At the same time, if someone who beats the spare change games online thinks they can show up in any 20/40+ live lineup and crush they will be in trouble.

Hi Paul:

Let me speculate here. I suspect the reason that none of the winning 80+ players can be described as nit-tags is that they can do well short handed and have a much better (and wider) 3-bet strategy.

Best wishes,
Mason

wat

Hi Pete:

Thanks. I fixed it.

Best wishes,
Mason