20 live
MUBSy, tight passive UTG+1 limps in, bad LAP who plays super fit or fold when he raises preflop raises in CO, SB folds, hero calls in BB w J8o
flop K23r checks around
turn Q putting FD (none of suites we have), hero bets UTG+1 calls, CO folds
riv Ao: hero bets ?

How does he view you, or,

how have you been playing this session?

I guess if I bet the turn I'm forcing myself to bet the river, putting him on QJ or QT and because he's passive he'll fold. I probably just check the turn and give up though...

Not really found of the turn bet honestly. I don't think you have enough fold equity to fire with basically no drawing equity.

As played, I Ch/Fold river. I guess were targeting like 99-44 with a bet? I don't think Qx folds and all his AJ/AT/JT/Axss hands got there on the river.

What's your pf range? Where does J8 sit in it on this flop? Logically, you should be bluffing with every worse hand, too, and that seems like a lot having defended the BB getting 5.5:1. Plus, once called, do you really have much chance to improve to a win?

nope, that's double barrel airball

dont really care for it. limper has many pairs still in his range and the Q hits a number of hands CO could conceivably be checking on the flop. you have little equity when you get called, so im just giving up on turn.

not sure I understand.... when you "care" for bluffs? If we bluff with the bottom of our range, which is often case with pure bluffs, of course our equity will be little if called. If both opponents would call my turn bet, I def would give up on the river, but once I am only left with weak tight one, I believe I have enough FE to fold J-hi flush draws and small pps

Also, the tight passive would probably fold 44-99s on the turn not closing the action, which is why I agree that the river is a check/fold (as I also doubt the tight passive will let go of Qx in that spot).

Also, worth noting, if the river blanks off, the hero has to bluff because JT makes sense every street.

My quick summary:

Preflop: I would fold

Flop: Standard

Turn: Qx hits too many possible hands for both villains, I would c/f. Not a good bluffing opportunity imo (the FD on the board also further hurts our bluffing chances).

River: C/F, the hands you're trying to fold would probably fold on the turn. It's over.

I think there is a pretty big difference in this situation between "bluffing with the bottom of our range" and semi-bluffing a reasonable draw as opposed to just an airball.

We're going to have a ton of better candidates to bluff this turn with, namely small FDs, 54s, maybe JT, rather than J8o.

Also, J8 isn't really close to the bottom of our range if you want to be technical. We'll have a ton of worse middle connector hands than J8o in this spot.

Edit: I guess no of this matters if you feel like you just have an exploitable spot where you could profitably bluff all your air here on the turn. I assume this is what you thought at the time?

As I already mentioned, I think this guy is folding those small pps on the turn, so the only reason to bet the river is to get a broken flush draw to fold. But what's interesting is you beat all broken flush draws with the exception of J9s (and you tie J8s). So the bluff in this spot is really more of a defensive maneuver to make sure YOU don't get bluffed. That said, the villain in this hand is tight passive, i.e. the exact kind of guy who would likely check down the river if you checked and let your J-high win vs his T9s,98s,87s,etc. If that is the case then your bluff on the river is clearly a mistake unless you have the perfect image + this guy sux at reading hands to the point where a bluff will get him to lay down Qx--a prospect I just don't buy, or at least I don't think it happens often enough to be worth considering.

Now if we assume the villain won't fold Qx, can't even have a pocket pair (seriously tight-passives don't call the turn with 77 in that spot when you bet the turn into two people and the guy behind him could've easily hit the Qx), AND THEN we asssume the villain WILL bluff 100% of the time if you check the river, thus giving us some incentive to bluff the river ourselves...EVEN in that scenario I wonder if there's enough combos in his range to make a bluff worth it. I suspect there is not, but at this point we'd have to do the math.

thanks guys, I agree I made a mistake. Great responses, glad I posted this.

This.

Problem with bluffing is that the turn and river smack his range, plus you're not able to rep much. Pick a better spot.