Live 20, game is playing like a circus for lack of a better term. Tons of MW action, most pots going off 4-5 ways for a raise. I'm running like absolute crap, but I'm in a good mood regardless (so while it may affect some people's decisions in the hand that I'm stuck, I'm not sure it will, as I am and seem more interested in discussing post election hangover and watching UFC 205).

Villain in this hand is a somewhat prototypical "aggressive" live reg. Cold calls a fair amount, 3 bets a bunch as well because he's "supposed to be aggressive". Recently my friend was sweating him while playing me and two other players in a 4 handed 20 game, and purportedly he cold capped my SB 3 bet with 75s or something similar. While this spot is totally different, it makes me think his ranges are wider than normal here. I'd assume he'd barrel this flop and turn a ton, but I'm not sure. Both cold callers in this hand are loose and will chase bare overcards all the way unless they've clear indication that their pair outs may be dead.

Action: I hold A4 in some mid position and open. A cold call, Villain 3 bets, someone takes three to the face, I call and cold caller calls.

Flop (13.5 sb): 772

Checks to villain who bets, a call, I peel once, cold caller calls behind.

Turn (8.75 BB): 4

Checks to villain who bets. 3 to the face calls and I check-raise...

Eh. Postflop is a result of pot getting bloated pre. I probably end up in this kind of spot a lot too.

I think raising the turn is pretty optimistic, but maybe it's still better than just calling. (We may fold out some better hands (e.g. TT-88/55-66)) I'll go with raise > call >>>>>>> fold.

Does anyone consider limping preflop? (seems gross open-limping MP). Or even *shudder* folding pre? Kind of reminds me of the QT hand in a separate thread.

I fold pre but don't think raising or calling is that much worse.

Would strongly consider raising flop as a bluff/semi-bluff/way to realize more equity.

You think TT-88 or 55-66 ever folds here?

I don't think A4ss is doing very well against the 3 bettor's range so raising the flop seems pretty hopeful to me. I don't expect him to fold better hands very often on the turn, unless possibly the flush draw hits and he doesn't have a redraw. We will have plenty of flush draws or better Ax that we can add to our flop raising range so I'm not sure that we need to add As4s.

I assume PF3bettor will bet his whole range on the turn here and I don't expect either he or the caller to fold given you don't have much 7x or 44 in your range. If his range is say, 77+/ATs+/AJo+, then we are ahead of 39 and behind 40 combos. So if it was just HU I think you could just call down, but with the other guy in I think you can raise (as long as you don't think the caller will fold or that he could have you beat). If PF3 has a significantly wider range, that would push it more towards raise. If we are behind we will lose 2 additional BB compared to just calling down. If we are ahead we will probably win 2-3, depending on whether we can get a call on the river from a worse hand.

If both opponents call the turn, they likely will have 3-12 outs vs you, so that decreases our equity some. Also, I think the caller could possibly have a better pocket pair (though he is described as loose so he could have Ax or overs as well). It's probably a close spot overall. If you think that villain would bet river for value with a big ace, then calling down is definitely right.

Thanks for asking.

From my reading, 3bettor is described as someone who 4b cap 57s. i.e. any hand he intends to play, he'll raise, and he likes playing a lot of hands. I'd say we're doing about equal EV with his range.

Good spot to implicitly collude to knock out the other cold caller.
We need to have some bluffs that aren't FDs. A4 is the weakest Ahi we have -- to me thats often a good sign to turn it into a bluff on this kind of board. I block Aces in others hands; I have some SDV, but don't mind bet/folding. Any stronger aces I'd rather call down for SDV, and not raise as a bluff. AK/AQ with BDFD can be raised for value.

Those are my reasons for wanting to turn A4 BDFD into a bluff. With these actual players who chase everything, it might be better to only raise value + flush draws. A big reason why I like being aggressive with Ax here is to get people with 6 live outs to fold and not realize all their equity. If they really are incapable of folding, the best adjustment is to widen value range and shrink bluff range.

Ok, you are giving him a wider preflop raise than I did, which probably explains your inclination to raise. If his 75s spew was after BTN raised and OP 3bet SB, then I don't think capping is necessarily bad from the BB, depending on how frequently he is doing it with a hand like that. I wouldn't necessarily assume he is equally spewy in a spot like this.

On the flop, I'm not sure that you necessarily need bluffs that aren't flush draws. It would probably depend how many value hands you have in your range, no? The pot is quite big so the GTO ratio of value to bluffs should be quite high.

And as for getting people with 6 live outs to fold...the only guy who is likely to fold is the guy behind you whom you can face with 2 cold. How often do you have the best hand AND he has 6 live outs that one of the other 2 guys in the hand doesn't have? That seems like a remote parlay to me.

Opening A4ss in 6m UTG seems fine, esp when hero should be able to make better postflop decisions than opponents.

Based on hero's reads, they are incapable of folding any 2 big overs like KQ or even smaller overs w some semblance of a draw, like Qc9d, for 2 bets otf.

Call turn, calling most rivers seems standard, depending on action. Aggro villain's range is uncapped and he's just fired a turn cbet 4 ways after getting no folds otf. I'm not confident he's bluffing or betting worse for value here and combined w 2 other villains and the small/mid PPs in their ranges, I don't think we have enough value to xr. Also, getting 3 bet here isn't fun and there are lots of bad rivers that leave us in an awkward spot OOP w the betting lead.

I like this analysis. I'd call for one and fold for two.

Isn't villain's 3 bet pretty much always 7x+ and air here? Plus how does he have a lot of 7x? A7s?

"circus"

This combined with the 75s reraise are the key factors. Vs a standard tag I think I'd just fold the turn but not with these reads.

Fwiw when I played 6 max online I looked into this extensively and concluded small Axs were not profitable utg so when I'm playing well I only play them in soft lineups. Same for KJo and QJo. Obviously splitting hairs but these hands / positions do come up all the time.

I came to the same conclusion, A4s is absolutely a fold pre for me at OL 6 max UTG (and probably HJ too). But obviously the worse everyone else plays, the more hands I'm allowed to play. I can't prove A4s is profitable BTN -3 or -4 or what have you in a live game, but I suspect that it is in a lineup where people play too loose pre and poorly post. Like if people will just call 3 streets with any pair when you flop an ace, miss value when they have you outkicked, let you off the hook for cheap when they cheap showdown raise their 55 on the JT3 board, all of this makes A4s better.

given game texture as described I think we change gears to adjust.
in a tight game this is a textbook fold preflop.
given the multiway feel of this game first in for a raise with a suited ace is an appropriate investment of money.

Fold pre-flop, especially when not running well. People make unexpected plays when you're not running well, like three-betting with KJ. It's hard to play A4 against KJ out of position, no matter how good you can read. I have a hard time believing a raise is profitable without some tells that make you equivalent to the cut-off (people folding out of turn).

Raising the turn is interesting, if your image is good (which it's not), then three-to-the-face may fold two eights for example. People are more likely to make these folds when you're running good, playing well. Not running well, it seems a little tilty, as better hands are not going to fold, and there's thin value. It's hard to believe that the bettor is always continuing with AT.

I think that's too tight, but obviously that's a live "feely" kind of thing, unless someone magically has DB data somewhere regarding A4s in a game w/ multiple 55/15 type opponents. I can be convinced that even in a game texture like this, A4s is not a playable hand, though (as stated before, it's a snappity snap fold for me OL).

And FWIW I'm playing fine at this juncture. This is the first hand where I may have done something on the optimistic/spewy side post. I'd be more concerned about opening light if my opponents are playing better thanks to all the $ I'm distributing, but that's not the case.

My general rule of thumb with Axs is to open raise with kickers that match my position relative to the button:

Cutoff= A2s
HJ= A3s
4 seat= A4s

I have no data to back this up, but it works out to opening A8s utg at a 10 handed table, which I think is just about right.

Pre flop is probably fine in this game. I fold it UTG in the online games we used to play in.

I would x/c down from turn.

haven't been active for a while. grunching here though since this is an interesting hand.

1. pf-> i'd fold in wild games and raise sometimes in tight 6m games, though almost always fold. this hand simply isn't profitable from utg 6m on average. now that you're raised and were 3b, did you consider 4betting here? not saying it's the best choice, but you do have a suited ace so you have that much as protection and you did say the guy was 3betting anything he'd play and it's possible you have the best hand as is. again, normally i'm just folding here, but given that you raised and were 3b by this guy and somebody took 3 to the face, the only real worry you have is he guy who took 3. might be worth that 4th bet.

2. flop-> due to potsize and description of other guy and pf play, no real choice here. too big to fold so k/c is fine.

3. turn-> i'd be worried about what 3ttf has at this point. i guess you're hoping he has KQs/AQs type hands and is calling in hopes of hitting his "6outer" and winning and w/ the bd flush draw on the flop (not spades ofc). if he doesn't have that type of hand, then he probably has 55/66 type hand. not 99 or TT though since he'd probably cap that pf. if you think 3ttf would fold 55/66 to this kr then definitely go for it. absolutely gotta get him off of it so you can win vs. overly agro villain. if it doesn't work on the turn though i'd check the river.