You don't have to believe this because I'm not going to provide evidence. But I can assure you that some of the biggest online LHE winners of the last 5 years play very differently from you in spots similar to these. Of course, that doesn't make it right....

I believe you..there's no doubt in My mind they all play better jab me and there's lots of spots I am likely playing wrong (I barely even play limit holdem anymore). That's why I'm wondering about this particular spot...
.but is it wrong to fold J5s there?

I have no idea. In the 3 handed example, I think it likely is correct to fold, at least from a GTO perspective. Exploitatively, it will depend on how the other 2 guys play, both preflop and postflop.

I don't even know what this mean... but how can it be true if the GTO bits are flatting J5s vs 43% openers. I am more confused now than at the start of this thread.

I think PhunkPhish's info is a bit outdated. They fold it.

so one bot said call, and now it says call, but we're not allowed to ask to for reason why we should with J5 besides 'a bot does it'

Well, if its ranges match up with our data for spots we do have enough data on, I would think it could be worth taking a gamble and assuming it might be on to something for the spots we don't have enough on. It's sure better than following our "gut."

Except we're not following our "gut." We're analyzing our millions of hands. At that was directed more at PP than you. PP just says a bot does it and expects that to be good enough

I am talking about spots we don't have nearly enough hands to figure out. I think you may be massively underestimating how many you would need with suited hands in spots not many people are coldcalling anyway.

There's tons of data on how J-8s through J-10s will perform oop in multiway raised pots. Likewise their is tons of data on A5s, K5s in similar spots....

At some point in time you come across a hand that will be a loser in a particular suit spot/and or position......now wait for it...... when you come across this spot all worse hands will lose money (unless something odd like A5s cs A6s)


I think you likely massively underestimate how many hands of poker some posters in this thread have played

How many hands do you have coldcalling suited jacks in the SB vs BTN open? How many do you think you would need before you could say that the group of hands is winning with, say, 95% confidence?

I'd imagine some people posted 150-200k small blinds a year. I'd imagine over time they run into a few spots where they call a raise muliways

So this person that is playing between 600k and 1.2 million hands in a year of 3+ handed...out of the 200k that he is in the small blind, how many hands does the BTN open raise? Out of those, how many are we dealt a suited jack that we are coldcalling?

0
Considerably more for spots I was talking about which is a raise and cold calls (like Op) and we have a hand in the small blind.

But if we are to lol for hands that would perfor similar to J5 suited we are going to be dealt suited jacks and suited 5s that we will cold call with 4-5,000 times a year in the smallblind. I can't tell you of those 5,000 how often we get to call a raise muliways but I've venture to guess it's enough to form some significant conclusions....

OK, how many hands do you have where the action is raise, 2 coldcalls (3 really), and you call a suited jack in the sb? It has to be a pretty small number. Or, how about this...what suited hands are losing in this spot for you and how many hands do you have? If you group all your losing suited hands (any 2 suited) I still think you don't have a significant sample.

I understand what you're saying and it's not what I specifically are saying. I know we have a mosh mash of conversations going.

You're saying we can't prove what's "right" and assuming we whole heartedly agree, you can't prove the bot is right either. PP just pops in, says a bot does it, and expects that do be good enough justification as to why others should try it.

And maybe hes right and the bot is 100% correct, but there is zero proof it is correct AND we I've never seen any hard data posted here. You said some bot used a cc J5s strat in one spot and then changed. Why did it change? How do we know whatever bot spot we're talking isn't going to be the next spot it changes?

We may not be able to prove for 100% the lines we suggest are winners in the grand scheme, but we can produce millions and millions and millions of hands that show what it has actually done against actual opponents who mostly can't spell GTO.

You're just simply never going to convince me that a way that can't be proven correct but can be proven a winner is worse than a way that can't be proven correct nor proven a winner without some damn compelling arguments. 'A bot does it' doesn't even come close

Damn it. Now I feel like that would have been a more effective post had I said,"We may never be able to prove it's correct, we can just prove that it wins."

Right? Now that would have been a more effective closing sentence.

I'm mostly just a nit when it comes to grammar. Typos aren't my thing.

Don't put words in my mouth.

I don't know if the bot is 100% GTO perfect. I'm citing it as one source of authority. IMO how a bot plays has greater credibility than your elite groupthink. Others can reach their own conclusions.

I shared some of my theories from observing some bots:
Theory on flatting SB is divided. Bots tend to flat SB more than typical pros; they also do so with a surprisingly wider range than one might expect; particularly with Face-rag-suited type hands. To me, that's interesting. To me, that makes me want to flat weak-looking hands like J5s in a 6 way pot from the SB.

Fair enough. What is it that makes a bot a source of authority about full ring limit holdem? inwansg even awar they played full ring holdem and certainly had no idea they were beating the game at higu levels.

If they are Im glad I no longer play online becusse I probably couldn't beat those games (of course I probably can't beat the bigger online games that don have bots either).

Could it be possible that a weak-suited face card fairs better in two or three handed blind steal situations where both players will have much wider ranges than in a 6 handed spot? That the high card strength of a jack is much more relevant there than it is it once you have an army of cold callers?

Could it be possible that some part of the suited face card range in the lower or middle is either indifferent or gains more by choosing to let the BB come in with his likely weak hand more than he gains by three betting and going hu with a marginal hand oop against an other GTO bot? And that a fold, call, or raise spot may be different from a fold or call spot?

You can't just shoe horn J5s in to a spot where it's a terrible hand using the reasoning that it could be ok because a bot does it in a spot where J5 is a decent hand.

Actually, if the bot use it because IT CAN play GTO ( or very close to it) when you cannot, maybe it is better not to use it because you will never be able to play the right strategy the bot use to make it +ev ...

bot are great in general scheme to adapt our play but probably not when it comes to very narrow margin where the bot can use very wide balance strategy while human cant.

example: if a bot would only cap IP with like 2% of hands, might be a better idea for us human, with limited memory to simply ignore that 2% of capping range and simply just never cap.

J5s seem to me those kinda of example where the margin of errors to be profitable is so slim, due to our lack of "memory" to apply the correct strategy to it and the rarity of the situation, probably just better to discard it.

Anyway for my part i would never call pf in this spot but i am glad some of us here would ..

What makes you say it's a terrible hand in a 6way pot? You're intuition or your database? If your database, please share. How many millions of hands do you have with exactly J5s in the SB vs 5 loose players. Chances are you're making some extrapolations.

Other posters have said their intuition is to call PF. I agree. Im throwing a bit extra evidence. I'm extrapolating that a hand that is playable 3handed is also playable 6handed in the same position. Not perfect, but better than just pure intuition.

You don't think it's possible that there's a hand in A2o-K2o area that could hold up fine in got bot v got bot fight with a sb cc?